Keris patrem ?

Maurice · 15th April 2025, 11:08 AM

And how about Javanese kerisses of this small length?
Are they more common in Java?

Kind refegards,
Maurice

David · 15th April 2025, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maurice

And how about Javanese kerisses of this small length?
Are they more common in Java?

Kind refegards,
Maurice

I would say that patrem are not exactly "common" in Jawa, but they are more likely to exist there.

David · 15th April 2025, 04:20 PM

Gio, i would say that you would be more likely to get comments if you could provide some better and more detailed images of the keris. The PDFs you provided are too small to be able to give much feedback and the first images you provided are a bit blurry.
From what i can see i agree that this blade is rather recent. Though dressed in Balinese form it gives me the impression of something made elsewhere, perhaps Madura. I see a reasonably well formed blade here, but i am afraid i do not see a "very, very well made" one. I could be wrong, but the blade appears to have been made without a core similar to Buntel Mayat.
I tend to agree with Alan about the lack of Balinese situations where a patrem would be worn. I could be wrong, but i also don't thing there are too many patrems being commissioned these days for cultural uses even in Jawa where they are a know part of the culture, though uncommon even there. So since this is a modern creation i am not sure we should be calling it a patrem.
It is an attractive little item though.

GIO · 18th April 2025, 02:22 PM

Many thanks for your answers. I myself have already excluded it as a keris patrem, I confirm the high level of craftmanship, the pamor as "buntel majat" (hence the absence of a core). My question is therefore: "what was it made for ??". Is it a form of talisman ?
Apart from any consideration I consider it a nice item and am happy to have purchased it.
Thank again for the cooperation and best regards. Gio

David · 18th April 2025, 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GIO

Many thanks for your answers. I myself have already excluded it as a keris patrem, I confirm the high level of craftmanship, the pamor as "buntel majat" (hence the absence of a core). My question is therefore: "what was it made for ??". Is it a form of talisman ?
Apart from any consideration I consider it a nice item and am happy to have purchased it.
Thank again for the cooperation and best regards. Gio

Could have been made for a number of reasons. Yes, a could have been intended as a jimat (talisman), but it could just as easily be an item created purely for collectors as many modern keris are.

Pak Daud · 29th May 2025, 10:21 AM

Gio,
I think this is 7 luk (waves) keris, but you are right, this is Kamardikan (after the independence or after) so it is considered newly minted. Pamor "Gubet".
It is definitly Balinese style, with Hilt carving as Togog? (I am not sure).
Good on dark staining as well.
In my opinion, since it is relatively small in measurement, it is NOT considered as Patrem, in which was Javanese term for the Keris obtained for female owner.
Smaller than patrem, then It may perceived as Keris "Jimatan" (Talisman) or keris "Tayuhan" (higher degree from just a talisman).
They are both have values within isoterical beliefs (such as represent of certain dieties etc).

IMHO, it was usually meant for "housing", an empty vessel, a place for dieties to be sat in. For example, in Balinese Hindu, a trader, a farmer, animal husbandries etc must corelate upon certain dieties that reflect to his job intended.

Anyway, it is good collection, fair build and clearly it's a charm.
Congrats Gio.

A. G. Maisey · 30th May 2025, 03:58 AM

Possibly even a charm to charm duit from the pockets of travellers into a sellers pockets.

But seriously, yes, sure it could be regarded as a charm with talismanic properties, provided it has been made as such.

I only know one person in Jawa & Bali who can make a keris using the correct mantras. Only one. And he will only make such a keris for a temple, not for an individual.

15th April 2025, 11:08 AM	#1
Maurice Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,453	And how about Javanese kerisses of this small length? Are they more common in Java? Kind refegards, Maurice

15th April 2025, 04:20 PM	#3
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	Gio, i would say that you would be more likely to get comments if you could provide some better and more detailed images of the keris. The PDFs you provided are too small to be able to give much feedback and the first images you provided are a bit blurry. From what i can see i agree that this blade is rather recent. Though dressed in Balinese form it gives me the impression of something made elsewhere, perhaps Madura. I see a reasonably well formed blade here, but i am afraid i do not see a "very, very well made" one. I could be wrong, but the blade appears to have been made without a core similar to Buntel Mayat. I tend to agree with Alan about the lack of Balinese situations where a patrem would be worn. I could be wrong, but i also don't thing there are too many patrems being commissioned these days for cultural uses even in Jawa where they are a know part of the culture, though uncommon even there. So since this is a modern creation i am not sure we should be calling it a patrem. It is an attractive little item though.

18th April 2025, 02:22 PM	#4
GIO Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 329	Many thanks for your answers. I myself have already excluded it as a keris patrem, I confirm the high level of craftmanship, the pamor as "buntel majat" (hence the absence of a core). My question is therefore: "what was it made for ??". Is it a form of talisman ? Apart from any consideration I consider it a nice item and am happy to have purchased it. Thank again for the cooperation and best regards. Gio

29th May 2025, 10:21 AM	#6
Pak Daud Member Join Date: May 2024 Posts: 6	Gio, I think this is 7 luk (waves) keris, but you are right, this is Kamardikan (after the independence or after) so it is considered newly minted. Pamor "Gubet". It is definitly Balinese style, with Hilt carving as Togog? (I am not sure). Good on dark staining as well. In my opinion, since it is relatively small in measurement, it is NOT considered as Patrem, in which was Javanese term for the Keris obtained for female owner. Smaller than patrem, then It may perceived as Keris "Jimatan" (Talisman) or keris "Tayuhan" (higher degree from just a talisman). They are both have values within isoterical beliefs (such as represent of certain dieties etc). IMHO, it was usually meant for "housing", an empty vessel, a place for dieties to be sat in. For example, in Balinese Hindu, a trader, a farmer, animal husbandries etc must corelate upon certain dieties that reflect to his job intended. Anyway, it is good collection, fair build and clearly it's a charm. Congrats Gio.

30th May 2025, 03:58 AM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Possibly even a charm to charm duit from the pockets of travellers into a sellers pockets. But seriously, yes, sure it could be regarded as a charm with talismanic properties, provided it has been made as such. I only know one person in Jawa & Bali who can make a keris using the correct mantras. Only one. And he will only make such a keris for a temple, not for an individual.