Moro punal bronze guard?

JeffS · 20th March 2025, 01:38 PM

That's great Detlef, exactly why I love this forum. The longer handles on those are needed with the shorter ferrules.

Ian · 20th March 2025, 04:58 PM

Thanks Detlef. Those two examples you show do look 19th C in origin. I had a similar one that I sold a while back. I may still have pictures. BTW, I think I see evidence of brazing between the ferrule and guard on your two as well, although they could be silver soldered.

As for the luk, it depends how you count them. As Alan Maisey points out in relation to keris, if you include the "false" luk at the beginning and end of the blade, then there are 11 (which is the Islamic way of counting luk in regard to the keris). The traditional count would be 9. I don't know how the Moro count the waves in their blades, but in some cases they do not follow the usual maximum of 11 luk with regard to their kris.

Pictures attached of my knife with a similar hilt but a straight blade. The wooden sheath is likely a 20th C replacement.

.

Ian · 20th March 2025, 06:15 PM

Just a little more on the dating of these gunong. I have taken the liberty of annotating one of Detlef's pictures.

Name: Detlef's examples-2.png
Views: 767
Size: 848.2 KB

The circled areas highlight the back edge just before the first "true" luk. The lower example shows a straight edge with a sharp point immediately before the first curve. This is less obvious in the upper example. This sharp point of the lower example is also seen in the same place on Mindanao kris from the end of the 19th C and into the 20th C. It is typically found on the heavier bladed versions of Maranao and Maguindanao kris from that period. The upper example is of a style that predates this feature. That does not mean that the upper example is older, just that it is an older form.

Jeff's example at the top of this post also shows a sharp point at this area of the blade.

My (conservative) feeling is that all of these examples, mine included, likely date from no earlier than the 1890s, and most likely are from the first part of the 20th C. This is based on an analogy to Moro kris showing similar features and the assumption that the ferrule/guard style was confined to relatively few (perhaps ony one) source. The construction of the combined ferrule/guard is unusual and requires materials and some expertise for brazing/silver soldering that may have been very limited in the Moro world of swords and knives. Some of the brazing looks fairly crude.

Battara · 20th March 2025, 11:22 PM

Just looking at the hilt styles by themselves, I would agree with your dating Ian.

Interested Party · 21st March 2025, 01:27 AM

Here is another discussion of this type of gunong.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=28826

JeffS · 21st March 2025, 03:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Interested Party

Here is another discussion of this type of gunong.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=28826

Cool. Do we merge threads here? Appending this one to that would be efficient use of space.

Rick · 25th March 2025, 11:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeffS

Cool. Do we merge threads here? Appending this one to that would be efficient use of space.

I think that would be quite helpful.
Ian, can you please facilitate this suggestion?

JeffS · 21st March 2025, 02:44 AM

Here is one more from my collection that features that squared shoulder.

Sajen · 21st March 2025, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

Just a little more on the dating of these gunong. I have taken the liberty of annotating one of Detlef's pictures.

Attachment 244007

The circled areas highlight the back edge just before the first "true" luk. The lower example shows a straight edge with a sharp point immediately before the first curve. This is less obvious in the upper example. This sharp point of the lower example is also seen in the same place on Mindanao kris from the end of the 19th C and into the 20th C. It is typically found on the heavier bladed versions of Maranao and Maguindanao kris from that period. The upper example is of a style that predates this feature. That does not mean that the upper example is older, just that it is an older form.

Jeff's example at the top of this post also shows a sharp point at this area of the blade.

My (conservative) feeling is that all of these examples, mine included, likely date from no earlier than the 1890s, and most likely are from the first part of the 20th C. This is based on an analogy to Moro kris showing similar features and the assumption that the ferrule/guard style was confined to relatively few (perhaps ony one) source. The construction of the combined ferrule/guard is unusual and requires materials and some expertise for brazing/silver soldering that may have been very limited in the Moro world of swords and knives. Some of the brazing looks fairly crude.

Hi Ian,

This feature of the sharp point is also found by later examples, see the attached pic. of another gunong from my collection.

Regards,
Detlef

Ian · 25th March 2025, 01:04 AM

Thanks Detlef. Yes, that sharply defined area is seen on later examples, well into the 20th C.

Rafngard · 25th March 2025, 01:27 AM

I have at least one similar, with the brass/bronze ferrule/guard and a nicely forged blade.

I'll see if I can't takes some pics soonish, but in the mean time, here's one cropped from a family photo.

Have fun,
Leif

Rafngard · 25th March 2025, 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rafngard

I'll see if I can't takes some pics soonish, but in the mean time, here's one cropped from a family photo.
f

Apparently today is "soonish"

20th March 2025, 04:58 PM	#2
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,396	Thanks Detlef. Those two examples you show do look 19th C in origin. I had a similar one that I sold a while back. I may still have pictures. BTW, I think I see evidence of brazing between the ferrule and guard on your two as well, although they could be silver soldered. As for the luk, it depends how you count them. As Alan Maisey points out in relation to keris, if you include the "false" luk at the beginning and end of the blade, then there are 11 (which is the Islamic way of counting luk in regard to the keris). The traditional count would be 9. I don't know how the Moro count the waves in their blades, but in some cases they do not follow the usual maximum of 11 luk with regard to their kris. Pictures attached of my knife with a similar hilt but a straight blade. The wooden sheath is likely a 20th C replacement. . Attached Images Last edited by Ian; 20th March 2025 at 05:16 PM. Reason: Added pics

20th March 2025, 06:15 PM	#3
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,396	Just a little more on the dating of these gunong. I have taken the liberty of annotating one of Detlef's pictures. The circled areas highlight the back edge just before the first "true" luk. The lower example shows a straight edge with a sharp point immediately before the first curve. This is less obvious in the upper example. This sharp point of the lower example is also seen in the same place on Mindanao kris from the end of the 19th C and into the 20th C. It is typically found on the heavier bladed versions of Maranao and Maguindanao kris from that period. The upper example is of a style that predates this feature. That does not mean that the upper example is older, just that it is an older form. Jeff's example at the top of this post also shows a sharp point at this area of the blade. My (conservative) feeling is that all of these examples, mine included, likely date from no earlier than the 1890s, and most likely are from the first part of the 20th C. This is based on an analogy to Moro kris showing similar features and the assumption that the ferrule/guard style was confined to relatively few (perhaps ony one) source. The construction of the combined ferrule/guard is unusual and requires materials and some expertise for brazing/silver soldering that may have been very limited in the Moro world of swords and knives. Some of the brazing looks fairly crude.

21st March 2025, 02:44 AM	#8
JeffS Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 427	Here is one more from my collection that features that squared shoulder. Attached Images

25th March 2025, 01:27 AM	#11
Rafngard Member Join Date: Jun 2015 Location: Minneapolis,MN Posts: 350	I have at least one similar, with the brass/bronze ferrule/guard and a nicely forged blade. I'll see if I can't takes some pics soonish, but in the mean time, here's one cropped from a family photo. Have fun, Leif Attached Images

20th March 2025, 01:38 PM	#1
JeffS Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 427	That's great Detlef, exactly why I love this forum. The longer handles on those are needed with the shorter ferrules.

20th March 2025, 11:22 PM	#4
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,280	Just looking at the hilt styles by themselves, I would agree with your dating Ian.

21st March 2025, 01:27 AM	#5
Interested Party Member Join Date: Dec 2019 Location: Eastern Sierra Posts: 497	Here is another discussion of this type of gunong. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=28826

25th March 2025, 01:04 AM	#10
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,396	Thanks Detlef. Yes, that sharply defined area is seen on later examples, well into the 20th C.