Can you help …..?

Ian · 12th March 2025, 04:16 AM

Perhaps this view may be a bit more helpful. It is markedly pixelated by one can now see the line of separation between the ganja and the rest of the blade.

Ian · 12th March 2025, 04:18 AM

Because this one deals with the keris, I'm transferring it to the Keris Fprum.

A. G. Maisey · 12th March 2025, 04:47 AM

Yes Ian, that's better than I was able to get, & that line of separation was one of the things i was looking for. However, I really would need a full length photo to have any chance of making any sort of possibly useful comment.

Gustav · 12th March 2025, 07:33 AM

Well, this is Greneng of a Keris, which was mentioned in an inventory for the first time in 1607. We most likely are looking at a 16th cent. Keris.

Todays "experts", seeing such blade, yell in one voice "Banten!". Yesterdays experts yelled "Bali".

A. G. Maisey · 12th March 2025, 09:02 AM

To a degree I do agree with you Gustav, there are elements of similarity in the greneng posted & in Jensen's photos of keris attributed to Banten, in fact, Jensen was the reference I looked at after Haryoguritno, but the variations in execution do not permit me to name this posted greneng as Banten.

I might be wrong, or at least, too demanding, but for me, this posted greneng is still outside the Banten matrix.

Perhaps in the hand, it might be more convincing.

Gustav · 12th March 2025, 10:15 AM

It is not featured in Jensens book, I guess it is in Krisdisk, chapter Bali, I cannot check at the moment. Here an even smaller picture of the entire Keris.

A. G. Maisey · 12th March 2025, 12:31 PM

Agreed, similar, but from what i am able to see in these tiny images, I simply cannot put Amuk's photo into the same box as the keris in your image, Gustav, nor the Jensen Banten images.

I read Amuk's request as a request to point him in the direction of the classification of keris that had a particular style of greneng, and I cannot do that from such a tiny image, when we look at a greneng, & some other keris characteristics, we look at very particular detail, and a small, poor image just does not give the required detail. Still if Amuk is only looking for similarity, then maybe Banten could be sufficient for him.

Banten of course is Sunda, so as I said in an earlier post, we need to start thinking in a different direction.

Ultimately it all comes down to the difficulty of only seeing something as a picture, in the hand we can often form a different opinion.

Sajen · 12th March 2025, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gustav

Todays "experts", seeing such blade, yell in one voice "Banten!". Yesterdays experts yelled "Bali".

Sajen · 12th March 2025, 04:49 PM

Alan, load down the picture and zoom it.

Regards,
Detlef

A. G. Maisey · 12th March 2025, 09:06 PM

Thanks Detlef, I have already done that, plus an attempt to improve through Photoshop, but the original pic is only 72X72dpi, it is simply not big enough nor good enough to let me see what I would like to see, & I don't much like guessing.

In any case, Amuk did ask for "similiar" & I think Gustav has given him this, I was thinking Jawa, & Banten is not Land of Jawa, which is what the whole tangguh system is based on. I was being too demanding.

I'm just back from a month in Jawa/Bali, & my mind is still using standards as they apply there --- at least amongst the people I associate with.

David · 14th March 2025, 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

Because this one deals with the keris, I'm transferring it to the Keris Fprum.

Ian, Amuk had already posted a thread on this in the Keris Forum. I am going to combine these threads to include my contribution and avoid future confusion and duplicity.

Ian · 19th March 2025, 08:21 PM

Thanks David. That makes a lot of sense. Double posting does create some confusion.

Amuk Murugul · 30th March 2025, 10:15 PM

Hullo everybody!

My apologies.
I was rather impatient and so left the thread to retire to the skull-cave and consult the chronicles; emerging to launch into an investigative foray into the matter.
Result:
- better-informed
- becoming the delighted owner of sought-after fretwork (see attached); less-than-ideal but adequate for current purpose. (I may post about it at a later date.)
Thank you for all your input.

Ian & David:

The reason that I initially posted in both rooms was that my initial research indicated the presence of the same fretwork as on David’s Bali blade, on blades from diverse areas of The Archipelago (e.g. sundering/kalis, patani, palembang etc. ). Thus, I had hoped to reach a wider audience. Sorry for the inconvenience.

As for the initial picture of the fretwork in post #1, I found it in a past thread; it is better than the picture of the hand-drawn sketch I have. I focused just on the fretwork so as not to detract from my subject of interest.

I now consider this thread closed.

Best,

Gustav · 30th March 2025, 11:10 PM

The Greneng in your previous post, with damaged/eroded Ron Dha, is from a Keris, which was auctioned on 29.3.25. It haven't made appearance here before.

Amuk Murugul · 31st March 2025, 02:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gustav

The Greneng in your previous post, with damaged/eroded Ron Dha, is from a Keris, which was auctioned on 29.3.25. It haven't made appearance here before.

Hullo Gustav,

I was referring to my initial picture (cause for some distraction): black blade on green background.

Best,

Sajen · 31st March 2025, 05:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gustav

The Greneng in your previous post, with damaged/eroded Ron Dha, is from a Keris, which was auctioned on 29.3.25. It haven't made appearance here before.

That others know about which keris Gustav speaks here.

12th March 2025, 07:33 AM	#4
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,280	Well, this is Greneng of a Keris, which was mentioned in an inventory for the first time in 1607. We most likely are looking at a 16th cent. Keris. Todays "experts", seeing such blade, yell in one voice "Banten!". Yesterdays experts yelled "Bali". Last edited by Gustav; 12th March 2025 at 07:58 AM.

12th March 2025, 10:15 AM	#6
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,280	It is not featured in Jensens book, I guess it is in Krisdisk, chapter Bali, I cannot check at the moment. Here an even smaller picture of the entire Keris. Attached Images

12th March 2025, 04:49 PM	#9
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,207	Alan, load down the picture and zoom it. Regards, Detlef Attached Images

30th March 2025, 10:15 PM	#13
Amuk Murugul Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Kaboejoetan Galoenggoeng Mélben Posts: 472	Hullo everybody! My apologies. I was rather impatient and so left the thread to retire to the skull-cave and consult the chronicles; emerging to launch into an investigative foray into the matter. Result: - better-informed - becoming the delighted owner of sought-after fretwork (see attached); less-than-ideal but adequate for current purpose. (I may post about it at a later date.) Thank you for all your input. Ian & David: The reason that I initially posted in both rooms was that my initial research indicated the presence of the same fretwork as on David’s Bali blade, on blades from diverse areas of The Archipelago (e.g. sundering/kalis, patani, palembang etc. ). Thus, I had hoped to reach a wider audience. Sorry for the inconvenience. As for the initial picture of the fretwork in post #1, I found it in a past thread; it is better than the picture of the hand-drawn sketch I have. I focused just on the fretwork so as not to detract from my subject of interest. I now consider this thread closed. Best, Attached Images Last edited by Amuk Murugul; 31st March 2025 at 02:10 AM.

12th March 2025, 04:16 AM	#1
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,396	Perhaps this view may be a bit more helpful. It is markedly pixelated by one can now see the line of separation between the ganja and the rest of the blade. Attached Images

12th March 2025, 04:18 AM	#2
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,396	Because this one deals with the keris, I'm transferring it to the Keris Fprum.

12th March 2025, 04:47 AM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Yes Ian, that's better than I was able to get, & that line of separation was one of the things i was looking for. However, I really would need a full length photo to have any chance of making any sort of possibly useful comment.

12th March 2025, 09:02 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	To a degree I do agree with you Gustav, there are elements of similarity in the greneng posted & in Jensen's photos of keris attributed to Banten, in fact, Jensen was the reference I looked at after Haryoguritno, but the variations in execution do not permit me to name this posted greneng as Banten. I might be wrong, or at least, too demanding, but for me, this posted greneng is still outside the Banten matrix. Perhaps in the hand, it might be more convincing.

12th March 2025, 12:31 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Agreed, similar, but from what i am able to see in these tiny images, I simply cannot put Amuk's photo into the same box as the keris in your image, Gustav, nor the Jensen Banten images. I read Amuk's request as a request to point him in the direction of the classification of keris that had a particular style of greneng, and I cannot do that from such a tiny image, when we look at a greneng, & some other keris characteristics, we look at very particular detail, and a small, poor image just does not give the required detail. Still if Amuk is only looking for similarity, then maybe Banten could be sufficient for him. Banten of course is Sunda, so as I said in an earlier post, we need to start thinking in a different direction. Ultimately it all comes down to the difficulty of only seeing something as a picture, in the hand we can often form a different opinion.

12th March 2025, 09:06 PM	#10
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Thanks Detlef, I have already done that, plus an attempt to improve through Photoshop, but the original pic is only 72X72dpi, it is simply not big enough nor good enough to let me see what I would like to see, & I don't much like guessing. In any case, Amuk did ask for "similiar" & I think Gustav has given him this, I was thinking Jawa, & Banten is not Land of Jawa, which is what the whole tangguh system is based on. I was being too demanding. I'm just back from a month in Jawa/Bali, & my mind is still using standards as they apply there --- at least amongst the people I associate with.

19th March 2025, 08:21 PM	#12
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,396	Thanks David. That makes a lot of sense. Double posting does create some confusion.

30th March 2025, 11:10 PM	#14
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,280	The Greneng in your previous post, with damaged/eroded Ron Dha, is from a Keris, which was auctioned on 29.3.25. It haven't made appearance here before.