Captain Kidds Treasure 'silver' (?) ingot

Jim McDougall · 28th January 2025, 12:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Possibly for the treasure hunter/s Jim, maybe not so much for the Bank and the private backers/investors when the expedition fails to produce.

Oh yeah, how could I forget. Forgive my romantic faux pas.
Also forgot, caveat emptor. The bottom line I was referring to was the artifacts and discoveries found (hopefully)despite the lack of actual 'treasure'.

Jim McDougall · 28th January 2025, 03:29 PM

In a related ironic note with the notorious Captain Kidd at the helm, actually he was a well established business man in New York when he became interested in the privateer venture along with 'pirate' hunting. This was of course in effect a syndicated venture with key political figures and likely other investors who stood to realize notable profit from the potential prizes and captures.

It was when Kidd's voyages were not presenting such prizes that Kidd reluctantly and inadvertently became a 'pirate' himself.
While technically he thought he was acting within his legal parameters, and ultimately arrested and scapegoated by the governor to cover his complicity in the scheme, Kidd's use of alleged hidden treasure for leverage created the ever looming trope of 'pirate treasure' that has become iconic in popular culture.

One of the most noted examples of this has been the legendary Oak Island Money Pit, with its 'story' of presumed buried treasure, often purported to have been Kidd's in various versions. The details of this long heralded mystery are too complex to discuss here, however the most notable point is that this location has been the source for many syndicated treasure seeking efforts from the early 19th century. Obviously the vast amounts of capital invested have been profound and of course effectively fruitless. However, the relentless search continues and has provided seemingly endless subject matter for writers, film makers and adventure seekers ever since the early syndicates and other ventures to solve the mystery.

That was but one aspect of the 'Kidd treasure' syndrome, which influenced early treasure seekers (known as money diggers) which ironically became indirectly associated with the origins virtually of an entire religion, the Mormon Faith. The family of the founder Joseph Smith was at one time deeply involved in these activities which were prevalent in upper state New York in particular, where the family lived.
The point here is not to introduce controversy, but to note how entirely pervasive was Kidd's purported buried treasure in those times, and how it became almost a cultural phenomenon.

Early writers such as Washington Irving and James Fenimore Cooper who became literary icons brought the notions of Kidd's buried treasure into their scope. These later influenced Poe in his "The Gold Bug", which in turn became imbued into the quintessant pirate/buried treasure drama "Treasure Island" which immortalized Robert Louis Stevenson as the most important pirate author.

I wanted to illustrate in more detail what I meant regarding 'buried treasure' and adventure. In virtually all aspects of the centuries of searching for the jealously believed treasure of Captain Kidd, clearly nothing in the sense of precious materials has ever been found.....but the adventures that most of us from childhood forward have always treasured have remained sacrosanct in our memories.

And the search will continue.

Jim McDougall · 30th January 2025, 04:41 PM

Still doing research on the lead ballast ingots (pigs) used in vessels in the 17th c. and it seems one of the key sources on study of these was written in 2013 by Mack McCarthy, "Lead Ingots from the Wreck of the Zuiddorp (1712) Western Australia" (International Journal of Nautical Archaeology" 2013.

This is incredibly comprehensive and detailed and lists many sources on this topic from many Dutch wrecks of 17th c. into 18th. Apparently English foundry's supplied much of the lead supply for the Dutch and other European nations, though obviously not exclusively, but major supplier.

As I went through this work (very detailed @ 18 pages) I found charts classifying the types etc. and one category (Type IV (ZT 3388 fig.6) has similar 'boat' shape to the CLIFFORD FIND in Madagascar. Apparently the example illustrated is heavier than the Clifford example, the shape is significant.

Also, concerning the markings:
It seems these lead ingots were indeed marked with various motifs, numbers, letters, initials and ciphers, sometimes dates.
Also apparently various merchants etc. would apply their own marks etc. along the use of these.
Rather than always being offloaded as 'wanladen' (useless and with no market value) often these remained in the hull under the cargo floors as part of the vessels weight and balance.

Without delving further into the complexities of lead ballast ingots here, the point is that this mysterious ingot found by the Clifford venture in the harbor at Isle ste. Marie appears to have been an authentically marked example rather than deceptively intended.
While it is puzzling why only a single ingot would be found as most finds of these from wrecks of course number from 100 or more. However, as the debris said to be from dock construction is suggested rather than that of a vessel, perhaps such items might have been used in those activities?
Whatever the case, it seems to have been a lead ballast ingot with examples of the many progressive marking characters used in wide variation in those times.

30th January 2025, 04:41 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	LEAD BALLAST INGOTS Still doing research on the lead ballast ingots (pigs) used in vessels in the 17th c. and it seems one of the key sources on study of these was written in 2013 by Mack McCarthy, "Lead Ingots from the Wreck of the Zuiddorp (1712) Western Australia" (International Journal of Nautical Archaeology" 2013. This is incredibly comprehensive and detailed and lists many sources on this topic from many Dutch wrecks of 17th c. into 18th. Apparently English foundry's supplied much of the lead supply for the Dutch and other European nations, though obviously not exclusively, but major supplier. As I went through this work (very detailed @ 18 pages) I found charts classifying the types etc. and one category (Type IV (ZT 3388 fig.6) has similar 'boat' shape to the CLIFFORD FIND in Madagascar. Apparently the example illustrated is heavier than the Clifford example, the shape is significant. Also, concerning the markings: It seems these lead ingots were indeed marked with various motifs, numbers, letters, initials and ciphers, sometimes dates. Also apparently various merchants etc. would apply their own marks etc. along the use of these. Rather than always being offloaded as 'wanladen' (useless and with no market value) often these remained in the hull under the cargo floors as part of the vessels weight and balance. Without delving further into the complexities of lead ballast ingots here, the point is that this mysterious ingot found by the Clifford venture in the harbor at Isle ste. Marie appears to have been an authentically marked example rather than deceptively intended. While it is puzzling why only a single ingot would be found as most finds of these from wrecks of course number from 100 or more. However, as the debris said to be from dock construction is suggested rather than that of a vessel, perhaps such items might have been used in those activities? Whatever the case, it seems to have been a lead ballast ingot with examples of the many progressive marking characters used in wide variation in those times.

28th January 2025, 03:29 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	In a related ironic note with the notorious Captain Kidd at the helm, actually he was a well established business man in New York when he became interested in the privateer venture along with 'pirate' hunting. This was of course in effect a syndicated venture with key political figures and likely other investors who stood to realize notable profit from the potential prizes and captures. It was when Kidd's voyages were not presenting such prizes that Kidd reluctantly and inadvertently became a 'pirate' himself. While technically he thought he was acting within his legal parameters, and ultimately arrested and scapegoated by the governor to cover his complicity in the scheme, Kidd's use of alleged hidden treasure for leverage created the ever looming trope of 'pirate treasure' that has become iconic in popular culture. One of the most noted examples of this has been the legendary Oak Island Money Pit, with its 'story' of presumed buried treasure, often purported to have been Kidd's in various versions. The details of this long heralded mystery are too complex to discuss here, however the most notable point is that this location has been the source for many syndicated treasure seeking efforts from the early 19th century. Obviously the vast amounts of capital invested have been profound and of course effectively fruitless. However, the relentless search continues and has provided seemingly endless subject matter for writers, film makers and adventure seekers ever since the early syndicates and other ventures to solve the mystery. That was but one aspect of the 'Kidd treasure' syndrome, which influenced early treasure seekers (known as money diggers) which ironically became indirectly associated with the origins virtually of an entire religion, the Mormon Faith. The family of the founder Joseph Smith was at one time deeply involved in these activities which were prevalent in upper state New York in particular, where the family lived. The point here is not to introduce controversy, but to note how entirely pervasive was Kidd's purported buried treasure in those times, and how it became almost a cultural phenomenon. Early writers such as Washington Irving and James Fenimore Cooper who became literary icons brought the notions of Kidd's buried treasure into their scope. These later influenced Poe in his "The Gold Bug", which in turn became imbued into the quintessant pirate/buried treasure drama "Treasure Island" which immortalized Robert Louis Stevenson as the most important pirate author. I wanted to illustrate in more detail what I meant regarding 'buried treasure' and adventure. In virtually all aspects of the centuries of searching for the jealously believed treasure of Captain Kidd, clearly nothing in the sense of precious materials has ever been found.....but the adventures that most of us from childhood forward have always treasured have remained sacrosanct in our memories. And the search will continue.