Lombok keris fullers and age query

[SidJ]

Thanks Alan, this is a perfect, easy to understand exposition of what comprises high quality work. I am grateful indeed. I was taking a bit of the mick out of my keris in my earlier comment.

[A. G. Maisey]

Nothing at all wrong with the keris that began this thread, it is fully fit for purpose, its just that it is not intended as an art work.

The keris in the photos that I just posted was intended to be the best work that the maker was capable of at the time he made it.

[JeffS]

I'm fascinated at the degree of skill that must be needed to carve steel to produce such delicate features as the upper "lip" of the sogokan, as shown in Alan's elevation view sketch, considering the limited space within the sogokan channel and the need to consistently carry that lip for the length of the sogokan.

[A. G. Maisey]

Actually Jeff, carving steel & iron is no more difficult than carving wood, in fact, in some respects it is easier because you have no grain to accommodate. Of course, if we are working with steel we anneal the material before putting tools on it.

But it does take time.

This keris that I have shown is one of the keris that I have made, I welded the forging in Solo, & I carved it back in Australia. I worked with two strikers for 3 days, about 20 or so hours, to do the hot work, then it took around 45 days at 8 to 10 hours a day to carve it.

The sogokan on each side of the blade took 4 days per side.

So yes, although there is a degree of skill involved, the really important thing is understand what needs to be achieved & be prepared to take the necessary time to achieve it.

Incidentally, I used only traditional Javanese tools to carve this keris, I did not use any electric grinders, I used only files, scrapers, cold chisels & a hammer, the files I bought, the scrapers & chisels I made.

[SidJ]

Do modern empus use modern power tools to make high end keris and if so are they considered lesser than those made using traditional hand tools? I've seen videos of dudes carving out keris details with power tools. Seems like it's cheating to me compared to the old ways but maybe it's not.

[A. G. Maisey]

All of the keris makers of the modern era whom I know or know of use modern tools & electric tools for the bench work involved in making a keris.

They are creating art and the current perception is that the end justifies the means.

Keris cost less to make now than they used to cost when traditional tools were used, & this is simply because using the old traditional tools it took a lot longer to do the work.

My teacher, Empu Suparman, used only the traditional tools. I have those tools and they are very simple hand tools.

[SidJ]

It's weird how the western pricing of old handmade keris, specifically everyman keris does not account for the fact that they are handmade. It's clearly a question of supply and demand.

[JeffS]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Actually Jeff, carving steel & iron is no more difficult than carving wood, in fact, in some respects it is easier because you have no grain to accommodate. Of course, if we are working with steel we anneal the material before putting tools on it.

But it does take time.

This keris that I have shown is one of the keris that I have made, I welded the forging in Solo, & I carved it back in Australia. I worked with two strikers for 3 days, about 20 or so hours, to do the hot work, then it took around 45 days at 8 to 10 hours a day to carve it.

The sogokan on each side of the blade took 4 days per side.

So yes, although there is a degree of skill involved, the really important thing is understand what needs to be achieved & be prepared to take the necessary time to achieve it.

Incidentally, I used only traditional Javanese tools to carve this keris, I did not use any electric grinders, I used only files, scrapers, cold chisels & a hammer, the files I bought, the scrapers & chisels I made.

Wow Alan, that is phenomenal. Thank you for sharing.