Captain Kidds Treasure 'silver' (?) ingot

drac2k · 11th January 2025, 10:39 AM

Very fascinating information Jim. I know nothing about the subject, however let me throw out a couple of goofy thoughts.
Could the lead bars have actually been part of a Spanish treasurer and some dishonest court official substituted lead bars for silver ones to cover up a theft; mixing in a few here and there?
Also have the bars ever been x-rayed?

CutlassCollector · 11th January 2025, 01:33 PM

Yes, very interesting Jim, took me on a wee google tour. Mostly ballast seemed to be rock or pig iron in those days.

It has occurred to me that perhaps the lead was cargo not ballast. Lead had a lot of valuable uses in those days - pipes for plumbing, water tanks and kitchen pots, roofing joints and not to mention ammunition.
It is probably too big to be the ship's musket ball supply!

Perhaps the marks are the maker's name and confirming the 95% lead content.

Probably too early for radiation shielding!

Jim McDougall · 11th January 2025, 04:07 PM

Thanks so much guys! Great thoughts and perspective! uh, CC, r
radiation shielding? LOL!!! good one.

Very good points on the uses of lead, one of the key uses obviously in these contexts was ammunition. In most studies of arms I have probed looking for records of arms shipments etc. one of the key commodities was saltpetre for powder.

On that note, mentioning the 'cutting' of commodities by unscrupulous officials was a very real issue. In the Spanish colonies in the 18th-19th c. the use of charcoal on powder was often used for financial gain by these guys, which became so notorious that Mexican powder was regarded nearly useless.

It is a good idea that perhaps this relatively huge ingot was scribed with marks to pose as silver, and IMO very logical thought given these kinds of ploys. The big question is, Kidd is not widely known for the plunder of Spanish ships. However there is an obscure reference of him taking one vessel out of Lima for Spain, and there may have been silver but no detailed references I am aware of.
Other than that, it seems possible that OTHER pirates in this haven in Madagascar might have acquired this sort of 'treasure' (or would be 'silver').
Perhaps even such ingots might have served as decoys on these vessels to detract from actual silver cache?

While I know that lead ballast was indeed produced in ingots, as noted pig iron or stone was more commonly used. There was apparently a notable production of lead ingots for ballast in England often used on Dutch ships as well.
The use of ballast outward voyage, and disposed of in ports of call in place of key cargo seems logical. The lead, as noted, might serve as a usable commodity in these colonial destinations for purposes described.

The DILEMMA here is :
Why has there been no follow up on the disposition of this curious ingot after its 2015 discovery?
Even if not silver, and not definitive proof of finding Kidds "Adventure Galley" (which is still listed as unlocated) it is still a historic artifact.

UNESCO pretty much blasted Clifford for premature announcement and claims to finding Kidd;s ship and ever elusive 'treasure'....with what they showed AFTER testing (which Clifford did not do) was simply lead.
Was this just too embarassing to continue, ? was any further search done in the site?
UNESCO says there was no ship wreckage, only what appears to be pylons or other debris from what may have been a careening dock or structure.

SO WHERE IS THIS BAR NOW? Was it ever tested further? any other items with it? only ONE bar?

I really appreciate you guys answering, and for good ideas. I feel sort of at an impasse here so its good to have your support.

Bob A · 11th January 2025, 06:06 PM

Fraudulent marking was the first thought that came to my mind as well.

As for UNESCO, their summary dismissal of the "ship" as debris is undercut by the fact of the bar and its description.

While I hesitate to ascribe ulterior, even nefarious, motives generally, when stakes are high, character tends to slip a bit.

Rick · 13th January 2025, 02:52 AM

Probably.
I find it amazing that Mr. Clifford neglected to bring a Silver test kit with him on his expedition.

If you find more information Jim, please keep us up to date. You could always try to contact him through the Whydah Museum website.

Have you read the book Walking The Plank by Stephen Kiesling yet?

Jim McDougall · 13th January 2025, 02:55 PM

Bob thank you for answering. The entire case for this being a silver bar and hyped into 'Captain Kidds treasure' seems to be 'on course for the unfortunately sensationalized career of Mr. Clifford.
Rick, I hoped you would come in on this, as for years you have called attention to the character of Clifford and your views were from close personal contact with him in your areas.

I think the use of disguised lead bars as valuable plunder must have been one of those unexplored areas of maritime trade and of course the piracy which becomes part of those contexts.

The nature of the 'ingot' from the Ile St. Marie harbor is first of all, a bit too large and heavy for a silver ingot and from what I can find on the apparently esoteric area of lead ballast bars, this unusual shape concurs somewhat.

The so called markings cut into this bar are 'in the manner' of the assay and control markings on Spanish silver bars, but of course, much cruder and interpretative. Absent are the conventional assay characters and of course the 'bite' marks (chunks for analysis by assayer).

It seems more than irresponsible to announce the locating of the Adventure Galley based on this single bar without proper testing. All I can think of is that the media was already on hand as Clifford had already been in this location seeking the wreck for some time, and they were ready to pounce. Still, Clifford should have cooled things down and followed protocols.
One of the most notable issues with him is the lack of proper archaeological staff on hand to ensure these kinds of protocols.

What I am trying to figure out is what became of this curiously disguised ingot after the year of hooplah in 2015. While clearly not 'treasure' it is still a valuable historic item as it was probably taken by one of the pirate groups who frequented there, and tossed as worthless. That it was found in an area of debris from dock structures rather than wreckage of a vessel seems to support that.

Thank you for the heads up on that book ! Ill check it out

I will see if I can find out more as you suggest, and as always invite any other input from those reading here, it has always been a team effort here.
It seems appropriate that pirate ships so often used ADVENTURE in thier names !!!

It is exactly what they have given us!

Richard G · 18th January 2025, 01:07 PM

Bering in mind we are talking about pirates, not overly renowned for their scruples, I am not the least surprised by the existence of any nefarious markings.
Best wishes
Richard

Jim McDougall · 19th January 2025, 01:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Probably.
I find it amazing that Mr. Clifford neglected to bring a Silver test kit with him on his expedition.

If you find more information Jim, please keep us up to date. You could always try to contact him through the Whydah Museum website.

Have you read the book Walking The Plank by Stephen Kiesling yet?

Thanks for the heads up on this book Rick, despite all the stuff about the huge treasure on the Whydah ('found' in 1984) and the huge caches of silver and gold in chests in the museum, why is there no mention of hordes of treasure found in the wreck? Most of the materials seem to be in huge blocks of concretion, including numbers of loose coins which have been 'worked over the years but no mention anywhere so far of huge blocks of coins,

Rick · 21st January 2025, 08:18 PM

If I recall correctly, the word was that they had not gone deep enough and the the majority was further beneath the sand, which is believable considering the amount of wave action off the 'backside' shoreline that moves so much sand around every year. When I was younger, I surfed this coast for 30 years or so and can attest to the amount of sand that gets moved around during the winter months. The picture below was taken by me from the parking lot at Nauset Light beach which is about 75 feet above sea level after a Winter storm.
Then, when the weather is suitable for diving on the wreck we have a high White Shark count that probably rivals South Africa's these days, this causes the need for a few extra divers to watch out for them and work stops until they have departed the area. Divers in black wetsuits look very much like their favorite food, Seals.

Jim McDougall · 2nd February 2025, 07:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CutlassCollector

Yes, very interesting Jim, took me on a wee google tour. Mostly ballast seemed to be rock or pig iron in those days.

It has occurred to me that perhaps the lead was cargo not ballast. Lead had a lot of valuable uses in those days - pipes for plumbing, water tanks and kitchen pots, roofing joints and not to mention ammunition.
It is probably too big to be the ship's musket ball supply!

Perhaps the marks are the maker's name and confirming the 95% lead content.

Probably too early for radiation shielding!

I found in reading through some material there was indeed 'lead sheeting' applied to hulls to shield from shot, sounds surprising but your idea apparently not far fetched!

CutlassCollector · 3rd February 2025, 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I found in reading through some material there was indeed 'lead sheeting' applied to hulls to shield from shot, sounds surprising but your idea apparently not far fetched!

Ah - the radiation shielding was just a comment on the fact that x-ray examination of the ingot would not be possible.

Your research into the markings on ballast lead was very interesting.
I was always doubtful that it could be passed off as silver. But lead and silver do have similarities - silver is very close in weight to lead (7% lighter) and silver oxidises to black and of course could be painted, so possible. The Lone Ranger (must do a link to your nostalgia thread - still looking for that sixgun) and various werewolf hunters can testify that silver makes just as good bullets as lead.

But (google again) lead is much softer than silver at near the bottom of the hardness table while silver is mid range. So we can protect ourselves from future scams by merely digging a thumbnail into the ingot before parting with any cash!

Jim McDougall · 3rd February 2025, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CutlassCollector

Ah - the radiation shielding was just a comment on the fact that x-ray examination of the ingot would not be possible.

Your research into the markings on ballast lead was very interesting.
I was always doubtful that it could be passed off as silver. But lead and silver do have similarities - silver is very close in weight to lead (7% lighter) and silver oxidises to black and of course could be painted, so possible. The Lone Ranger (must do a link to your nostalgia thread - still looking for that sixgun) and various werewolf hunters can testify that silver makes just as good bullets as lead.

But (google again) lead is much softer than silver at near the bottom of the hardness table while silver is mid range. So we can protect ourselves from future scams by merely digging a thumbnail into the ingot before parting with any cash!

Thank you CC!
Wonderful note on the 'Lone Ranger'! and the nod to that thread which has been a lot of fun, we all treasure those memories of yesteryear,.
Actually I recall an instance years ago in my years with the airlines, Clinton Moore, the actor who portrayed the Lone Ranger was traveling, and in the worst abomination ever......his trusty guns were stolen!!! Much worse than an ordinary crime, this was the worst deed imaginable as our young values of justice and honor were shaken to the core.

Great analogies!

Jim McDougall · 4th February 2025, 04:51 PM

Getting back to the topic which is basically, DID Captain Kidd have a treasure in the first place, and why would the the ADVENTURE GALLEY have been a candidate for holding said treasure?

Despite the short lived excitement brought by Clifford's purported finding of the ADVENTURE GALLEY in the harbor at St.Marys in Madagascar, all current references note the remains have NOT been found, and no further rebuttal has been forthcoming toward that event, nor any further effort or interest in finding this wreck has seemed to exist.,

In looking into this ship itself, it was apparently launched at one of Englands largest shipyards, that of Captain Willam Castle at Deptford, outside London, in 1695. When Kidd was backed by the syndicate of investors, the governor and several high station individuals, the latter of marque was approved by King William III who also would gain a percentage....he acquired the vessel in 1696.

When he ventured forth into his 'pirate hunting' enterprise, presumably his goal was more toward confiscating the great riches they were acquiring from their conquests than to bring these pirates to justice. Having virtually zero success in finding, let alone taking any pirate prizes in the two years he plied the waters in the Indian Ocean and others, he finally inadvertently became 'pirate' himself. This was by taking two prizes, the ROUPARELLE (November) and the large Armenian vessel for India, the QUEDAGH MERCHANT off the Malabar Coast in 1698.
As typically the case, these 'treasure' aboard merchant ships was goods, not gold, silver and jewels (though obviously these were somewhat present as currency in trade).

So after TWO years of being at sea, the Adventure Galley had become a leaking and barely seaworthy vessel. Kidd decided to take it and the Rouparelle to St. Marys, and the larger Quedah Merchant was to become the vessel of use.
As far as known, the Adventure Galley was OFFLOADED and sunk somewhere off the NW coast of Madagascar, it never made it to St.Marys. It seems the Rouparelle renamed 'November' was scuttled at St. Marys, likely burned as several other vessels there.
The remaining vessel, the Quedah Merchant took Kidd to Hispaniola (now Dominican Republic), where eventually it was too sunk after Kidd purchased a sloop.
That wreck there has presumably been located.

Captain Kidd was never a very successful privateer, pirate hunter...and certainly not pirate. The few prizes he took were unlikely to have held any large quantities of 'treasure', though a degree of such proceeds were indeed secreted at Gardiners Island just prior to arrest, and was quickly retrieved after. The value was nominal, and Kidd tried to imply more treasure was to be found using it as a bargaining chip.

It was entirely a ploy, any treasure that existed would have been taken OFF his vessels BEFORE they were scuttled. None of these ships were 'LOST' unexpectedly. He had few prizes with evidence of huge riches, they held primarily goods which were sold off. Those proceeds were, as with most pirates, quickly spent, not buried.

So the key question here applies mostly to the subject of LEAD INGOTS used as ballast, and why would this example have EVER been mistaken (?) for silver?

Just some thoughts to reiterate the theme of the thread and discussion.

By this time (1698)

Jim McDougall · 13th February 2025, 02:05 AM

It seems the questions remainng are, A) was the Adventure Galley ACTUALLY scuttled in the harbor at St.Mary's in Madagascar as Barry Clifford tried to intimate with the huge ingot purported to be silver? and as it seems widely held by many references.
B) Did Kidd actually have treasure to bury? even if not in all the wildly suggested tales which led to the unusual 'industry' of 'money digging'. ?
While the vessels he did actually take were not over laden treasure ships, they did have aboard a certain amount of coin, typically gold it seems, with the bulk of the materials being certain commodities.
It does seem, in his struggles with crew anxious for booty, he did sell these materials and distribute proceeds among the crew.

We know Kidd DID have a certain amount of coin, both silver and gold which he still held in New York and before arrest, buried it on Gardiners Island. This small amount was not the hoards that LORE has buried in the various popularly held areas which have led to the legends and famed literature on pirate treasure.....from Irving, Poe to the quintessential "Treasure Island".

But getting back to his ship....the ADVENTURE GALLEY.....was it really dismantled and burned in St. Marys harbor? We know another of Kidd's ships captured was the Rouparelle (later named November) and that WAS dismantled and BURNED in the harbor in 1698. Perhaps this was what gave the notion the Adventure Galley was burned.

Whatever the case, when Kidd left St. Mary's it was in the Quedah Merchant, the Armenian ship he had captured off India, which had caused Kidds branding as pirate.

I found one theory, of course hypothetical, that Kidd had somehow realigned with former adversary Robert Culliford, who was in St. Marys with his vessel, Mocha. In arrangements with him, Kidd offered him the Adventure Galley, which was careened and repaired over weeks. From there it is thought that Culliford renamed it and sailed back to depredations in the Indian Ocean.
While Culliford was later captured, he was able to arrange clemency for testimony and released.
From there, no further record exists of him.

Clearly one key problem with vessels of these times, is that they often changed hands, whether through being refitted or sold, of course being captured by privateers or pirates ....it becomes hard to follow records to identify a ship with different name obviously.

So while this thread is of course focused on the mystery of this silver ingot found in St. Mary's harbor in Madagascar, and prematurely heralded as silver and EVIDENCE of finding Kidd's Adventure Galley.................the related mysteries of Captain Kidd so prevalent in pirate lore are worthy of inclusion here.

It seems there is strong interest in this subject matter, and I hope others reading might add material, observations and ideas here.
Pirate mysteries never get old!!

13th January 2025, 02:52 AM	#5
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	Just Too Embarrassing To Continue? Probably. I find it amazing that Mr. Clifford neglected to bring a Silver test kit with him on his expedition. If you find more information Jim, please keep us up to date. You could always try to contact him through the Whydah Museum website. Have you read the book Walking The Plank by Stephen Kiesling yet? Last edited by Rick; 13th January 2025 at 03:15 AM.

21st January 2025, 08:18 PM	#9
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	If I recall correctly, the word was that they had not gone deep enough and the the majority was further beneath the sand, which is believable considering the amount of wave action off the 'backside' shoreline that moves so much sand around every year. When I was younger, I surfed this coast for 30 years or so and can attest to the amount of sand that gets moved around during the winter months. The picture below was taken by me from the parking lot at Nauset Light beach which is about 75 feet above sea level after a Winter storm. Then, when the weather is suitable for diving on the wreck we have a high White Shark count that probably rivals South Africa's these days, this causes the need for a few extra divers to watch out for them and work stops until they have departed the area. Divers in black wetsuits look very much like their favorite food, Seals. Attached Images

13th February 2025, 02:05 AM	#14
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Researching further It seems the questions remainng are, A) was the Adventure Galley ACTUALLY scuttled in the harbor at St.Mary's in Madagascar as Barry Clifford tried to intimate with the huge ingot purported to be silver? and as it seems widely held by many references. B) Did Kidd actually have treasure to bury? even if not in all the wildly suggested tales which led to the unusual 'industry' of 'money digging'. ? While the vessels he did actually take were not over laden treasure ships, they did have aboard a certain amount of coin, typically gold it seems, with the bulk of the materials being certain commodities. It does seem, in his struggles with crew anxious for booty, he did sell these materials and distribute proceeds among the crew. We know Kidd DID have a certain amount of coin, both silver and gold which he still held in New York and before arrest, buried it on Gardiners Island. This small amount was not the hoards that LORE has buried in the various popularly held areas which have led to the legends and famed literature on pirate treasure.....from Irving, Poe to the quintessential "Treasure Island". But getting back to his ship....the ADVENTURE GALLEY.....was it really dismantled and burned in St. Marys harbor? We know another of Kidd's ships captured was the Rouparelle (later named November) and that WAS dismantled and BURNED in the harbor in 1698. Perhaps this was what gave the notion the Adventure Galley was burned. Whatever the case, when Kidd left St. Mary's it was in the Quedah Merchant, the Armenian ship he had captured off India, which had caused Kidds branding as pirate. I found one theory, of course hypothetical, that Kidd had somehow realigned with former adversary Robert Culliford, who was in St. Marys with his vessel, Mocha. In arrangements with him, Kidd offered him the Adventure Galley, which was careened and repaired over weeks. From there it is thought that Culliford renamed it and sailed back to depredations in the Indian Ocean. While Culliford was later captured, he was able to arrange clemency for testimony and released. From there, no further record exists of him. Clearly one key problem with vessels of these times, is that they often changed hands, whether through being refitted or sold, of course being captured by privateers or pirates ....it becomes hard to follow records to identify a ship with different name obviously. So while this thread is of course focused on the mystery of this silver ingot found in St. Mary's harbor in Madagascar, and prematurely heralded as silver and EVIDENCE of finding Kidd's Adventure Galley.................the related mysteries of Captain Kidd so prevalent in pirate lore are worthy of inclusion here. It seems there is strong interest in this subject matter, and I hope others reading might add material, observations and ideas here. Pirate mysteries never get old!!

11th January 2025, 10:39 AM	#1
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,258	Very fascinating information Jim. I know nothing about the subject, however let me throw out a couple of goofy thoughts. Could the lead bars have actually been part of a Spanish treasurer and some dishonest court official substituted lead bars for silver ones to cover up a theft; mixing in a few here and there? Also have the bars ever been x-rayed?

11th January 2025, 01:33 PM	#2
CutlassCollector Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Scotland Posts: 355	Yes, very interesting Jim, took me on a wee google tour. Mostly ballast seemed to be rock or pig iron in those days. It has occurred to me that perhaps the lead was cargo not ballast. Lead had a lot of valuable uses in those days - pipes for plumbing, water tanks and kitchen pots, roofing joints and not to mention ammunition. It is probably too big to be the ship's musket ball supply! Perhaps the marks are the maker's name and confirming the 95% lead content. Probably too early for radiation shielding!

11th January 2025, 04:07 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Thanks so much guys! Great thoughts and perspective! uh, CC, r radiation shielding? LOL!!! good one. Very good points on the uses of lead, one of the key uses obviously in these contexts was ammunition. In most studies of arms I have probed looking for records of arms shipments etc. one of the key commodities was saltpetre for powder. On that note, mentioning the 'cutting' of commodities by unscrupulous officials was a very real issue. In the Spanish colonies in the 18th-19th c. the use of charcoal on powder was often used for financial gain by these guys, which became so notorious that Mexican powder was regarded nearly useless. It is a good idea that perhaps this relatively huge ingot was scribed with marks to pose as silver, and IMO very logical thought given these kinds of ploys. The big question is, Kidd is not widely known for the plunder of Spanish ships. However there is an obscure reference of him taking one vessel out of Lima for Spain, and there may have been silver but no detailed references I am aware of. Other than that, it seems possible that OTHER pirates in this haven in Madagascar might have acquired this sort of 'treasure' (or would be 'silver'). Perhaps even such ingots might have served as decoys on these vessels to detract from actual silver cache? While I know that lead ballast was indeed produced in ingots, as noted pig iron or stone was more commonly used. There was apparently a notable production of lead ingots for ballast in England often used on Dutch ships as well. The use of ballast outward voyage, and disposed of in ports of call in place of key cargo seems logical. The lead, as noted, might serve as a usable commodity in these colonial destinations for purposes described. The DILEMMA here is : Why has there been no follow up on the disposition of this curious ingot after its 2015 discovery? Even if not silver, and not definitive proof of finding Kidds "Adventure Galley" (which is still listed as unlocated) it is still a historic artifact. UNESCO pretty much blasted Clifford for premature announcement and claims to finding Kidd;s ship and ever elusive 'treasure'....with what they showed AFTER testing (which Clifford did not do) was simply lead. Was this just too embarassing to continue, ? was any further search done in the site? UNESCO says there was no ship wreckage, only what appears to be pylons or other debris from what may have been a careening dock or structure. SO WHERE IS THIS BAR NOW? Was it ever tested further? any other items with it? only ONE bar? I really appreciate you guys answering, and for good ideas. I feel sort of at an impasse here so its good to have your support.

11th January 2025, 06:06 PM	#4
Bob A Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 436	Fraudulent marking was the first thought that came to my mind as well. As for UNESCO, their summary dismissal of the "ship" as debris is undercut by the fact of the bar and its description. While I hesitate to ascribe ulterior, even nefarious, motives generally, when stakes are high, character tends to slip a bit.

13th January 2025, 02:55 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Bob thank you for answering. The entire case for this being a silver bar and hyped into 'Captain Kidds treasure' seems to be 'on course for the unfortunately sensationalized career of Mr. Clifford. Rick, I hoped you would come in on this, as for years you have called attention to the character of Clifford and your views were from close personal contact with him in your areas. I think the use of disguised lead bars as valuable plunder must have been one of those unexplored areas of maritime trade and of course the piracy which becomes part of those contexts. The nature of the 'ingot' from the Ile St. Marie harbor is first of all, a bit too large and heavy for a silver ingot and from what I can find on the apparently esoteric area of lead ballast bars, this unusual shape concurs somewhat. The so called markings cut into this bar are 'in the manner' of the assay and control markings on Spanish silver bars, but of course, much cruder and interpretative. Absent are the conventional assay characters and of course the 'bite' marks (chunks for analysis by assayer). It seems more than irresponsible to announce the locating of the Adventure Galley based on this single bar without proper testing. All I can think of is that the media was already on hand as Clifford had already been in this location seeking the wreck for some time, and they were ready to pounce. Still, Clifford should have cooled things down and followed protocols. One of the most notable issues with him is the lack of proper archaeological staff on hand to ensure these kinds of protocols. What I am trying to figure out is what became of this curiously disguised ingot after the year of hooplah in 2015. While clearly not 'treasure' it is still a valuable historic item as it was probably taken by one of the pirate groups who frequented there, and tossed as worthless. That it was found in an area of debris from dock structures rather than wreckage of a vessel seems to support that. Thank you for the heads up on that book ! Ill check it out I will see if I can find out more as you suggest, and as always invite any other input from those reading here, it has always been a team effort here. It seems appropriate that pirate ships so often used ADVENTURE in thier names !!! It is exactly what they have given us!

18th January 2025, 01:07 PM	#7
Richard G Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 411	Bering in mind we are talking about pirates, not overly renowned for their scruples, I am not the least surprised by the existence of any nefarious markings. Best wishes Richard

4th February 2025, 04:51 PM	#13
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Getting back to the topic which is basically, DID Captain Kidd have a treasure in the first place, and why would the the ADVENTURE GALLEY have been a candidate for holding said treasure? Despite the short lived excitement brought by Clifford's purported finding of the ADVENTURE GALLEY in the harbor at St.Marys in Madagascar, all current references note the remains have NOT been found, and no further rebuttal has been forthcoming toward that event, nor any further effort or interest in finding this wreck has seemed to exist., In looking into this ship itself, it was apparently launched at one of Englands largest shipyards, that of Captain Willam Castle at Deptford, outside London, in 1695. When Kidd was backed by the syndicate of investors, the governor and several high station individuals, the latter of marque was approved by King William III who also would gain a percentage....he acquired the vessel in 1696. When he ventured forth into his 'pirate hunting' enterprise, presumably his goal was more toward confiscating the great riches they were acquiring from their conquests than to bring these pirates to justice. Having virtually zero success in finding, let alone taking any pirate prizes in the two years he plied the waters in the Indian Ocean and others, he finally inadvertently became 'pirate' himself. This was by taking two prizes, the ROUPARELLE (November) and the large Armenian vessel for India, the QUEDAGH MERCHANT off the Malabar Coast in 1698. As typically the case, these 'treasure' aboard merchant ships was goods, not gold, silver and jewels (though obviously these were somewhat present as currency in trade). So after TWO years of being at sea, the Adventure Galley had become a leaking and barely seaworthy vessel. Kidd decided to take it and the Rouparelle to St. Marys, and the larger Quedah Merchant was to become the vessel of use. As far as known, the Adventure Galley was OFFLOADED and sunk somewhere off the NW coast of Madagascar, it never made it to St.Marys. It seems the Rouparelle renamed 'November' was scuttled at St. Marys, likely burned as several other vessels there. The remaining vessel, the Quedah Merchant took Kidd to Hispaniola (now Dominican Republic), where eventually it was too sunk after Kidd purchased a sloop. That wreck there has presumably been located. Captain Kidd was never a very successful privateer, pirate hunter...and certainly not pirate. The few prizes he took were unlikely to have held any large quantities of 'treasure', though a degree of such proceeds were indeed secreted at Gardiners Island just prior to arrest, and was quickly retrieved after. The value was nominal, and Kidd tried to imply more treasure was to be found using it as a bargaining chip. It was entirely a ploy, any treasure that existed would have been taken OFF his vessels BEFORE they were scuttled. None of these ships were 'LOST' unexpectedly. He had few prizes with evidence of huge riches, they held primarily goods which were sold off. Those proceeds were, as with most pirates, quickly spent, not buried. So the key question here applies mostly to the subject of LEAD INGOTS used as ballast, and why would this example have EVER been mistaken (?) for silver? Just some thoughts to reiterate the theme of the thread and discussion. By this time (1698)