Early Yataghan for Comments and Discussion

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

I do not know about the other examples you mentioned, but I suspect most blades with "Turkish ribbon" to be late 19th century or early 20th century.

It wouldn't be an exception for the most prestigious auction houses to be dead wrong on dating their lots. Museums also...

From practical, mechanical point of view, "Turkish ribbon" pattern weld serves solely decorative reasons and does not contribute positively to the mechanical properties of the blade... on contrary.

But this is only my opinion, based on my own observations and personal research.

Ultimately, people believe what they want to believe.

Hello Marius,

I don't have an opinion myself on the subject but I know that everybody can be deadly wrong, also so called experts.
I miss a few words in your statement: "I could be wrong!"
I've noticed every time again that people put their personal opinion as a fact. I am careful with such statements, my two cents!

Regards,
Detlef

[Gustav]

The earliest dated yataghan with twisted rod pattern (Turkish ribbon) to my knowledge is from 1592. Around this date twisted rod pattern appears also in Asia and SEAsia.

[TVV]

Everyone is entitled to an opinion - it would not be a forum otherwise. And everyone reading this thread can form their own opinion based on the factual evidence presented both ways.

There are numerous examples of blades with rows of Turkish ribbon in this forum, on the internet, in museums and published in books. They are far too many to even attempt to list here. Then there are also numerous early Ottoman pattern welded barrels on firearms.

Interestingly enough, pattern welded blades also exist in Balkan folklore as for example "сабя диплянка" (sabya diplyanka), which in Bulgarian means "saber with folds" or "ribbon saber". This is different from сабя дамаскиня (sabya damaskinya), or Damascus sword, which would refer to one made of wootz. I believe there is a song about Krali Marko, a popular hero throughout the Balkans, and his fight with Musa Kesedzija, in which Marko shatters Musa's damaskinya with his diplyanka.

Here is an excerpt from a Bulgarian folk song about St. George fighting a "ламя" (lamya), which is a 3-headed Hydra like creature, which references pattern welded sabers twice:

че си зема сабя диплянка, (and he took his diplyanka)
сабя диплянка с дванайсет дипли (saber with twelve ribbons)

Разсърди се свети Георги, (St. George got angry)
че си извади сабя диплянка, (he pulled out his diplyanka saber)
че й пресече дор три глави, (and cut off all her three heads)

It is fairly obvious that the song is referencing a blade with rows of Turkish ribbon, especially in the part that goes into details such as the number of layers, in this case 12. The presence of such blades into folk songs would suggest that they were valued and predate the late 19th century.

GP's question on blade form is a good one. The examples with a widening toward the tip look similar to the machairas and falcattas of antiquity, and probably handle similarly. I am not a practitioner of HEMA, Kali or any other martial arts, so maybe someone with such a background can comment more on this.

An alternative explanation may have to do with these earlier yataghans being derived from Balkan utility knives, such as the shepherds' knives in Bulgaria, which are shorter and wider compared to the longer and more elegant blades into which yataghans ultimately evolved.

Here are some more examples. The first one is from the Bavarian Army Museum in Ingolstadt. It is interesting to see the rings on the scabbard for a baldric:


Then there is one published in the recent Gold and Damascus catalogue, # 75, with a long 80 cm blade and nine layers of twistcore:

[gp]

Originally Posted by TVV

I believe there is a song about Krali Marko, a popular hero throughout the Balkans, and his fight with Musa Kesedzija, in which Marko shatters Musa's damaskinya with his diplyanka.

Attachment 241815

for those interested, some nice songs from the Balkan about King Marko / Krali - Kralj Marko

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qv3Renv5eyg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcLG_EnZldY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6W39VIuTKOg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jj5tEXBfUs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_bMjAmEK24



some more info on the man:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5ioxYmEaCU
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Marko

Last but not least, thank you Teodor for the above info. It opens up quite some new perspective(s) and information.
As for martial arts; in my youth I practised the Indonesian Pencak Silat Setiah Hati but the weapons we used,
differ completley from these yataghans, hence my curiousity but also kind of "ingnorance" how they are used.
I can only tell like in my reply to Detlev how they feel in my hand and swinging around but that doesn't make me a specialist at all, au contraire ...☺

What fascinates me is the similarity with quite some weapons ( predecessors perhaps ? ) of the swords type of weapons in the region from the ancient times...5 -4 BC
Looking at these, more than 2500 years ago, it is interesting to know how these evolved and how they migh or might not be related to the yataghans we are know discussing...

[gp]

Question to all, and no..I am neither trying to bait any member nor playing games, no disrespect intended at all !
but seriously would like to know your opinion and more info about this new yataghan I recently purchased.

[TVV]

GP, congratulations on your new yataghan. I have what I believe is a similar yataghan, except mine has lost the original leather on the scabbard and has been shortened. The scabbard has a very similar pattern carved on it and ends similarly in a thimble at the chape. Based on the scabbard and the thimble, I used to think it was Algerian, but now I am not so sure. When I showed mine to some yataghan collectors in Bulgaria they thought that it was from Macedonia or Northern Greece, at least based on the hilt and bolster.






Your question about the relation between yataghans and the sikas and machairas of Thracians, Illyrians, Dacians and some of the Celts which settled in the Balkans during Antiquity is a very good one. I personally believe there is a relation, but I cannot prove it in any conclusive manner and I do not really want to create even more controversy in this thread.

[gp]

Originally Posted by TVV

GP, congratulations on your new yataghan. I have what I believe is a similar yataghan, except mine has lost the original leather on the scabbard and has been shortened. The scabbard has a very similar pattern carved on it and ends similarly in a thimble at the chape. Based on the scabbard and the thimble, I used to think it was Algerian, but now I am not so sure. When I showed mine to some yataghan collectors in Bulgaria they thought that it was from Macedonia or Northern Greece, at least based on the hilt and bolster.

Attachment 241859
Attachment 241860
Attachment 241862
Attachment 241863

Your question about the relation between yataghans and the sikas and machairas of Thracians, Illyrians, Dacians and some of the Celts which settled in the Balkans during Antiquity is a very good one. I personally believe there is a relation, but I cannot prove it in any conclusive manner and I do not really want to create even more controversy in this thread.

Thank you for your reply on my latest yataghan as I had some doubts.
That has been settled by your reply!
You don’t create a controversy at all, the opposite is the case :

You open a most interesting an valuable discussion, exchange of minds and more important provide proof ( where many do not come further than stating “ I think….” But don’ back up by pics, books and literature).
Hence I think your contribution to be very of added value and hope it will not refrain you from posting. Specially as it makes me wiser in this most fascinating subject.
The discussion on yataghan has more or less stopped in 2015 when it started in 2004 if I search the forum correctly. And on the Balkans and its cold weapons there are only a few with some detailed knowledge….

I also do think there is a correlation between the Antiquity and Ottoman ones in the Balkans(perhaps also to extend the Black Sea and Caucasian area…? As a kind of cross fertilization…?)


Take care and have a nice day !

Gunar