Early Yataghan for Comments and Discussion

[gp]

congratulations with your yataghan!
What confuses me a little is the different bolsters (indicated as #4 in the first picture) versus all the above pictures.
Any data on lenght of the blades or the age of the 4 pieces?

I took the liberty to put them together and can not figure out the difference versus age....but that could be my limited knowledge
The blade is very nice and in excellent condition, with a beautiful stamp.
Specially if I would follow your case with regards to being an early yataghan

some interesting info can be found in this publication:
https://www.iaras.org/iaras/filedown...0016(2017).pdf

unfortunately I could not find anything to provide more insight in publications from the museums in Croatia, Bosnia, Serbia and recent ones by Zoran Marcov, Head of Department National Museum of Banat,
Maybe other forum members can assist in this most interesting topic...

[TVV]

Good question on the lengths. Mine is about 62 cm overall. My friend's as the tape measure indicates is 57 cm overall. Number 140 in Karlsruher Turkenbeute is 75.5 cm.

Here are some more from Oriental Arms sold archive with a a length of 71 cm:


And another one, also 71 cm:


And a third one, with a similar hilt and bolster to mine, 60 cm long:



The bolsters are all over the place, and the hilt also vary from tri-lobate to square to very small ears. A couple of the ones above have what looks like a heart shaped frog button on the scabbard mouth, which would be unusual for an Ottoman weapon but much more in place in an Austrian context.

[gp]

thank you for the most interesting additional information!
I really do like the mark on your bolster very much ☼
My compliments, a very good "catch"☺

[TVV]

My friend has another one of these potentially earlier yataghans, but it is much bigger, at about 80 cm overall. Another difference is the dark horn hilt and the blade decoration, even if the blade also has layers of Turkish Ribbon.





It is similar to this one that was sold by Sotheby's many years ago. I will also attach a picture in case the link stops working or the image is removed.

https://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions...0/lot.260.html

[mariusgmioc]

In my oppinion, this is a recent (very recent) yataghan made in the style of older examples.

I have visited extensively museums in Turkey and haven't encountered any single example of old blade with "Turkish ribbon" pattern weld. In fact, all "Turkish ribbon" pattern welded examples I have seen were assumed from late 19th century blades... but they were most likely 20th century.

[TVV]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

In my oppinion, this is a recent (very recent) yataghan made in the style of older examples.

I have visited extensively museums in Turkey and haven't encountered any single example of old blade with "Turkish ribbon" pattern weld. In fact, all "Turkish ribbon" pattern welded examples I have seen were assumed from late 19th century blades... but they were most likely 20th century.

I know I am being baited, but for the purpose of enhancing the knowledge of the community on this forum, this is a point that will need to be addressed. Before I respond, I just have a few clarifying questions:
1. Of all the yataghans I have presented so far in this thread, is mine the only one that you deem to be of recent manufacture, or does this extend to all the examples, including those sold by Oriental Arms, Sotheby's, etc?
2. A search containing the words "Turkish ribbon" produces 71 threads since the forum moved to VBulletin. The majority contain yataghans with Turkish ribbon blades, with hilts ranging from Algeria through to Balkans to Asia Minor. Are they all modern, 20th century and later creations?
3. Apart from yataghans, there are palas, bichaqs and even kindjals and quaddaras with twistcore rods in the blades. Are those also modern, or is the argument that smiths in the Ottoman Empire and surrounding areas back in the day applied twistcore to pretty much all blades they made except for yataghans?

[gp]

Thank you very much ! Благодаря много! for your fair comment and most interesting questions ...

which, to be honest... I do not have an answer to but like the exchange of minds on this issue as for one there is a very valid point raised and secondly even the literature in and from both the Balkans and Turkey ( how interesting they are ) do not always give conclusive answers.

Nevertheless I find this contribution and pics of yours and your friend's and others most interesting

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by TVV

I know I am being baited, but for the purpose of enhancing the knowledge of the community on this forum, this is a point that will need to be addressed. Before I respond, I just have a few clarifying questions:
1. Of all the yataghans I have presented so far in this thread, is mine the only one that you deem to be of recent manufacture, or does this extend to all the examples, including those sold by Oriental Arms, Sotheby's, etc?
2. A search containing the words "Turkish ribbon" produces 71 threads since the forum moved to VBulletin. The majority contain yataghans with Turkish ribbon blades, with hilts ranging from Algeria through to Balkans to Asia Minor. Are they all modern, 20th century and later creations?
3. Apart from yataghans, there are palas, bichaqs and even kindjals and quaddaras with twistcore rods in the blades. Are those also modern, or is the argument that smiths in the Ottoman Empire and surrounding areas back in the day applied twistcore to pretty much all blades they made except for yataghans?

I do not know about the other examples you mentioned, but I suspect most blades with "Turkish ribbon" to be late 19th century or early 20th century.

It wouldn't be an exception for the most prestigious auction houses to be dead wrong on dating their lots. Museums also...

From practical, mechanical point of view, "Turkish ribbon" pattern weld serves solely decorative reasons and does not contribute positively to the mechanical properties of the blade... on contrary.

But this is only my opinion, based on my own observations and personal research.

Ultimately, people believe what they want to believe.