Karabela? Persian? Balkan?

ariel · 15th July 2006, 02:09 AM

Why do we call it Karabela if it is Persian?
As far as I know, the name Karabela is of European origin, mostly Polish.
According to Z. Zybulski, the potential origins are:
Cara e bella ( Italian for " deaar ann beautiful")
Arabella ( Italian for "Arabian")
Karbala ( town in Iraq)
Karabel ( town in Turkey)
Is there a special name for a saber with an "eagle head" handle in Iran or Turkey? Tough to imagine that Turks or Iranians called it Karabela.
What about Hungary or the Balkans?

S.Al-Anizi · 15th July 2006, 05:28 AM

Nice sword. Interesting to see the star of david (seal of solomon) on a Persian blade. I dont think the persian shiism used this mark. It was more connected to the Ottoman sunni empire, and its arab lands.

Valjhun · 15th July 2006, 12:33 PM

Yes, I agree, the "david" strar is ottoma, maybe even caucasus. Reminds me of some shashka blade, but the hilt is persian I think.

ariel · 15th July 2006, 01:53 PM

Caucasian "shashka" blades were widely exported to as far as Oman in the 19th century (the origin of curve-bladed Kattaras).
But this one doesn't strike me as Caucasian.

Battara · 15th July 2006, 08:12 PM

Nice silver work. The silver content seems to be coin silver, about 80% silver to 20% copper.

eftihis · 18th July 2006, 11:37 AM

In the very interesting post of Rivkin regarding Georgian arms on page 6 (i cannot copy here the photo), there is a photo of a Chesvur(?) sword (first from the right) that althougth is not all visible, resembles this one.
It has 2 fullers one more wide like this, and a deep "star" althought with more points, on the blade.

ariel · 18th July 2006, 01:01 PM

Hey, Eftihis,
Just now noticed you are from Crete. Look up Stathis Papavasiliou in Iraklion. He is a Prof. of Medicine at the University of Crete. To say he is just a good friend of mine would be an understatement of the year!

Radu Transylvanicus · 22nd July 2006, 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Why do we call it Karabela if it is Persian?
As far as I know, the name Karabela is of European origin, mostly Polish.
What about Hungary or the Balkans?

All people of the Balkans pretty much reffer to it as "Karabela" and the only thing different I can help you with is that sometimes the type of cossguard is named "shariban", meaning moustache, hence the striking resemblance with a French chef's upper lip

. The most important elements are the crossguard and then the eagle head pommel, not necesarilly the blade which can be straight and still qualify as a karabella.
Generalising many museums reffer to them as Pallasch (German) palasz (Hungarian) Palos (Romanian pron. palosh) or Pala or Palah past the East borders of Europe. Its a very vague and arguable therm but nonetheless, not incorrect.
INMHO I see a posibility of this Karabela not being Persian, have you asked Wolviex yet?
Probably seven out of ten karabelas in Europe are Polish, the rest mostly in Hungarian kingdom or vassal princely states like Transylvania, where most of karabellas comming from Persia were rehilted and bejewelled like the famous one for Miklos Zrinyi, from 16th century completely covered in thick gold and gems, work done in Transylvania but sword was traded from Persia;today part of the Collection of Hungarian National Museum in Budapest.
I heard the therm "Qaddara" used by Persian and Ottoman in conjunction with the karabelas sources if I remember correctly but to confuse us further the therm is also asociated with the kindjals. Others, mostly when from Persian-Mughal-Afghan parts reffer to it as "Poulwar", I heard that one many times and I preffer it; therefore keeping matters simple: if Eastearn European or Turkish is a "karabela" or if loose features, safely stick with "palasch" and if further Middle East or Indian subcontinent to me is a "poulwar"
The Golden age of the karabela was in the 17th & 18th century when most nobles would own at least two of them, one for war and one for parade, a lighter and more ostentaciously decorated version.

ariel · 22nd July 2006, 08:12 PM

You are right: that is what it's called in Europe.
But what about Turkey or Iran?

Radu Transylvanicus · 22nd July 2006, 08:18 PM

youre too fast. I was still updating my post while you answered

Radu Transylvanicus · 22nd July 2006, 08:29 PM

I see this Karabela as being possibly Ottoman rather than Persian. The good thing is that this one could definatelly be called a karabella, not much of a hybrid with other types. Like stated already I dont see much Caucasian features in it.

S.Al-Anizi · 22nd July 2006, 10:36 PM

The blade is almost certainly not persian, whilst the hilt is Persian I think, qajar, with those quillions and the hilt motif.

18th July 2006, 11:37 AM	#6
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 511	Arms of Georgian kings by Rivkin In the very interesting post of Rivkin regarding Georgian arms on page 6 (i cannot copy here the photo), there is a photo of a Chesvur(?) sword (first from the right) that althougth is not all visible, resembles this one. It has 2 fullers one more wide like this, and a deep "star" althought with more points, on the blade.

15th July 2006, 02:09 AM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Why do we call it Karabela if it is Persian? As far as I know, the name Karabela is of European origin, mostly Polish. According to Z. Zybulski, the potential origins are: Cara e bella ( Italian for " deaar ann beautiful") Arabella ( Italian for "Arabian") Karbala ( town in Iraq) Karabel ( town in Turkey) Is there a special name for a saber with an "eagle head" handle in Iran or Turkey? Tough to imagine that Turks or Iranians called it Karabela. What about Hungary or the Balkans?

15th July 2006, 05:28 AM	#2
S.Al-Anizi Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Arabia Posts: 278	Nice sword. Interesting to see the star of david (seal of solomon) on a Persian blade. I dont think the persian shiism used this mark. It was more connected to the Ottoman sunni empire, and its arab lands.

15th July 2006, 12:33 PM	#3
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	Yes, I agree, the "david" strar is ottoma, maybe even caucasus. Reminds me of some shashka blade, but the hilt is persian I think.

15th July 2006, 01:53 PM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Caucasian "shashka" blades were widely exported to as far as Oman in the 19th century (the origin of curve-bladed Kattaras). But this one doesn't strike me as Caucasian.

15th July 2006, 08:12 PM	#5
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,280	Nice silver work. The silver content seems to be coin silver, about 80% silver to 20% copper.

18th July 2006, 01:01 PM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Hey, Eftihis, Just now noticed you are from Crete. Look up Stathis Papavasiliou in Iraklion. He is a Prof. of Medicine at the University of Crete. To say he is just a good friend of mine would be an understatement of the year!

22nd July 2006, 08:12 PM	#9
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	You are right: that is what it's called in Europe. But what about Turkey or Iran?

22nd July 2006, 08:18 PM	#10
Radu Transylvanicus Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: 2008-2010 Bali, 1998-2008 USA Posts: 271	youre too fast. I was still updating my post while you answered

22nd July 2006, 08:29 PM	#11
Radu Transylvanicus Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: 2008-2010 Bali, 1998-2008 USA Posts: 271	I see this Karabela as being possibly Ottoman rather than Persian. The good thing is that this one could definatelly be called a karabella, not much of a hybrid with other types. Like stated already I dont see much Caucasian features in it.

22nd July 2006, 10:36 PM	#12
S.Al-Anizi Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Arabia Posts: 278	The blade is almost certainly not persian, whilst the hilt is Persian I think, qajar, with those quillions and the hilt motif.