Weapons of the Lake Van Highlands

AvtoGaz · 30th December 2023, 03:31 PM

Thank you Ian and Jim, I am very grateful to hear that you found my research interesting!

In terms of the Kurdish-Armenian yatagans, although I doubt that they hail from this region in particular im sure they come from somewhere nearby in Anatolia that undoubtedly had a very similar social situation. It's clear much more research is needed to finally seal the deal on those, but as I understand it this forum was instrumental in finding the true origins of Laz Bichaqs, so hopefully, if there is enough interest that case can finally be closed someday in the future!

Although Khevsur martial culture and their system of Parikaoba dueling was far more robust, I nonetheless agree that there are some striking parallels. This could also just be due to their very similar circumstances, being extremely isolated mountain folk who carefully preserved ancient traditions and always were quick to defend their traditional autonomy. In the case of the Khevsurs, they were constantly being attacked by the neighboring Kist people, which explains why their martial culture was much more developed.

Although they are more related to the ethnographic side of this presentation rather than the discussion on the weapons themselves, I wanted to bring up two other extremely important elements of the local martial culture. The traditional epic "Daredevils of Sasun" and the local ancient war dance "Yarkhushta".

"Daredevils of Sasun" is an epic poem, that was transmitted entirely through oral tradition. It tells tales of the resistance of the local Armenian population to the Arab invaders during the Middle Ages, so its oral tradition is centuries upon centuries old. As this poem was very well known in many regions of Armenia, it is part of what gave the residents of these highlands such a reputation as fierce warriors quick to resist injustice and oppression. As their customs detailed above and their revolts against Ottoman rule proved, this reputation was certainly deserved to the bitter end of their existence.

"Yarkhushta", for its part, is a local martial dance. I will leave a link where you can check it out below, but it is essentially a representation of the clash between two armies. Two opposing groups of armed men, consisting of equally sized teams where each opponent would be paired up with one other, would approach each other while clapping and singing. Then, they would strike their hands together extremely hard, then withdraw and repeat the process until one side deemed that it had "won". Often, this was repeated until some of the participant's hands had been injured. Given the etymology of this word, which is something like "Friend of the weapon", it seems likely that at some point this dance was a military training exercise and was perhaps performed with real weapons.

Click here to see a performance of Yarkhushta by the Karin ensemble.

Jim McDougall · 30th December 2023, 11:52 PM

I think the geography, history and ethnicity of these regions is likely among the most challenging to adequately understand, at least for me of course as a complete stranger to this colorful history.
I see what you mean on the regional locations you are discussing as opposed to the areas of the Kurdish-Armenian yataghans (Laz bichagi, a term that of course has its own challenges as noted) which are to the northwest, closer to the Black Sea.

Also confusing as far as weaponry are the 'T' handle yataghans which are attributed primarily to the 'Zeybeks' who were it seems largely of the Yoruk tribes I understand and situated in the Pontic regions. While the Zeybek term is apparently seen as meaning 'outlaw, bandit' etc. these men served as auxiliary, guerilla forces during the Greek invasions into Anatolia in 1919. While these T handle yataghans are claimed to be attributed to Zeybek use, other claims are they are simply later version of the well known eared yataghans which were easier to make with simpler pommel.

While realizing I am stretching the scope of what you are focused on here, it is pretty exciting to see this topic addressed with someone very personally involved and well versed of course so better understanding can be achieved.
For example, I admit I have always been confused by the term 'Anatolia' as well as 'transcaucusus' used often in referring to weapons from these areas.

AvtoGaz · 24th February 2024, 07:49 AM

For those interested, I have completed a larger body of research linked below which greatly fleshes out a lot of the information I discussed here. Thanks!

Photos below: Chaldean Men with Khanjars, one with a Sword, and Chakhmakhlis. A local Kurdish or Armenian nobleman (The titles would have been Agha or Bey for Kurds, Res or Ishkhan for Armenians) with his bodyguard. These images really illustrate the form of the swords used in this region.

https://medium.com/@raznavraziya/mar...n-ae291fa44b8a

AvtoGaz · 17th March 2024, 04:18 AM

I have uncovered new information indicating that flintlock weapons were widely produced in the region, contrary to information provided by Petoyan, and came in a multitude of variations. The below segment is translated directly from HM Poghosyans "History of Sasun", p. 118.

If any experts of Ottoman firearms have any information on these variations which they could share, I would greatly appreciate it. Any information will go a long way in this research.

"From very old times the people of Sasun produced Chakhmakhli firearms for defense, which the inhabitants of the mountains called "Tvng". The firearms owned by the people came in different shapes and sizes. The Sasunians called their different types of firearms "Majar", "Shashkhan", "Tersmi", "Stambuli", "Navhulu", etc."

Here is what I have gathered from this information. Again, any extra information and insight would be greatly appreciated.

1: Majar: This word is an archaic way of saying "Hungarian", aka Magyar. Must refer to a Hungarian type of flintlock?
2: Shashkhan: Perhaps referring to Shishane guns?
3: Tersmi: Most likely, I think it refers to guns from Dersim, or produced in Dersim style (Which I am personally not aware of).
4: Stambuli: Pretty obviously referring to guns from Istanbul
5: Navhulu: Not the faintest of an idea what this could be referring to.

This is nothing all that out of the ordinary. In nearby Georgia, many local weapons bore names of faraway geographic areas as well (Pranguli, or French, Swords. Khirimi, or Crimean, guns were widely known in Georgia). It is now just a case of isolating and finding examples of this rich variety of weaponry. Once again, any help would be greatly appreciated.

AvtoGaz · 4th April 2024, 10:19 AM

I wanted to talk a bit more about martial arts and training in this area, as well as arms production.

Most sources I am reading nowadays seem to suggest that arms production was at a very high level here. Especially in the sub-region of Talvorik in Sasun, where metal was extracted. Incidentally, this was also the region of Sasun most independent from Kurdish influence, said to have boasted the bravest men. According to an ethnographer who visited the region in 1895, the weapons produced in Sasun were very well known, not just in the highland districts, but in the neighboring lowland regions as well. According to them, the locally produced "Shashkhan" guns were the most prized item that hailed from this region. For more information and sources, see my medium post linked above.

Besides the aforementioned "Sword and Martal" ritualistic fencing, training exercises and dueling forms with Sword and Buckler are described with their own names in the dictionary of Sasun dialectical words in Petoyan's book. To train with Sword and Buckler is known as "Martalug", while the regular (not ritual) friendly fencing game in Sasun was known as Martlutse. Interestingly, these words have roughly the same meaning as another, much more well-known form of fencing found in nearby Georgia, Khevsur Parikaoba. "Pari" refers to the local Khevsur buckler shield, and "aoba" refers to an action as I understand it (please correct me if I am wrong). In a similar vein, "Martal" refers to the Van Highlanders buckler, and "ug" roughly refers to an action.

Interestingly, some photographs of locals from these areas using bows have been preserved. Based on one of the photos, I would guess children trained with these before moving on to firearms.

Pictured below:
1: Armenians from Van (if you look carefully, you can see they are carrying bows).
2 and 3: Assyrian Tribesmen from Hakkari

wildwolberine · 6th April 2024, 06:33 PM

Would definitely be interested in more information about their archery equipment. I assume they are self bows?

AvtoGaz · 8th April 2024, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wildwolberine

Would definitely be interested in more information about their archery equipment. I assume they are self bows?

As I understand it, yes. They were mostly used by youngsters for training, before they moved onto firearms.

gp · 2nd September 2024, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AvtoGaz

I wanted to talk a bit more about martial arts and training in this area, as well as arms production.

Most sources I am reading nowadays seem to suggest that arms production was at a very high level here. Especially in the sub-region of Talvorik in Sasun, where metal was extracted. Incidentally, this was also the region of Sasun most independent from Kurdish influence, said to have boasted the bravest men. According to an ethnographer who visited the region in 1895, the weapons produced in Sasun were very well known, not just in the highland districts, but in the neighboring lowland regions as well. According to them, the locally produced "Shashkhan" guns were the most prized item that hailed from this region. For more information and sources, see my medium post linked above.

Besides the aforementioned "Sword and Martal" ritualistic fencing, training exercises and dueling forms with Sword and Buckler are described with their own names in the dictionary of Sasun dialectical words in Petoyan's book. To train with Sword and Buckler is known as "Martalug", while the regular (not ritual) friendly fencing game in Sasun was known as Martlutse. Interestingly, these words have roughly the same meaning as another, much more well-known form of fencing found in nearby Georgia, Khevsur Parikaoba. "Pari" refers to the local Khevsur buckler shield, and "aoba" refers to an action as I understand it (please correct me if I am wrong). In a similar vein, "Martal" refers to the Van Highlanders buckler, and "ug" roughly refers to an action.

Interestingly, some photographs of locals from these areas using bows have been preserved. Based on one of the photos, I would guess children trained with these before moving on to firearms.

Pictured below:
1: Armenians from Van (if you look carefully, you can see they are carrying bows).
2 and 3: Assyrian Tribesmen from Hakkari

thank you very much for this most interesting info! ( as I had years ago in Turkey a very nice acquaintance from Van)

Some more info for those interested :

https://x.com/NenosNshemoon/status/1109267400174624768

http://www.shlama.be/shlama/content/view/222/188/

and their neighbours the Tyari or AKA Tyareh

http://www.tyareh.org/photo-gallery.html

30th December 2023, 11:52 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	I think the geography, history and ethnicity of these regions is likely among the most challenging to adequately understand, at least for me of course as a complete stranger to this colorful history. I see what you mean on the regional locations you are discussing as opposed to the areas of the Kurdish-Armenian yataghans (Laz bichagi, a term that of course has its own challenges as noted) which are to the northwest, closer to the Black Sea. Also confusing as far as weaponry are the 'T' handle yataghans which are attributed primarily to the 'Zeybeks' who were it seems largely of the Yoruk tribes I understand and situated in the Pontic regions. While the Zeybek term is apparently seen as meaning 'outlaw, bandit' etc. these men served as auxiliary, guerilla forces during the Greek invasions into Anatolia in 1919. While these T handle yataghans are claimed to be attributed to Zeybek use, other claims are they are simply later version of the well known eared yataghans which were easier to make with simpler pommel. While realizing I am stretching the scope of what you are focused on here, it is pretty exciting to see this topic addressed with someone very personally involved and well versed of course so better understanding can be achieved. For example, I admit I have always been confused by the term 'Anatolia' as well as 'transcaucusus' used often in referring to weapons from these areas. Attached Images

24th February 2024, 07:49 AM	#3
AvtoGaz Member Join Date: Dec 2022 Posts: 37	For those interested, I have completed a larger body of research linked below which greatly fleshes out a lot of the information I discussed here. Thanks! Photos below: Chaldean Men with Khanjars, one with a Sword, and Chakhmakhlis. A local Kurdish or Armenian nobleman (The titles would have been Agha or Bey for Kurds, Res or Ishkhan for Armenians) with his bodyguard. These images really illustrate the form of the swords used in this region. https://medium.com/@raznavraziya/mar...n-ae291fa44b8a Attached Images

17th March 2024, 04:18 AM	#4
AvtoGaz Member Join Date: Dec 2022 Posts: 37	I have uncovered new information indicating that flintlock weapons were widely produced in the region, contrary to information provided by Petoyan, and came in a multitude of variations. The below segment is translated directly from HM Poghosyans "History of Sasun", p. 118. If any experts of Ottoman firearms have any information on these variations which they could share, I would greatly appreciate it. Any information will go a long way in this research. "From very old times the people of Sasun produced Chakhmakhli firearms for defense, which the inhabitants of the mountains called "Tvng". The firearms owned by the people came in different shapes and sizes. The Sasunians called their different types of firearms "Majar", "Shashkhan", "Tersmi", "Stambuli", "Navhulu", etc." Here is what I have gathered from this information. Again, any extra information and insight would be greatly appreciated. 1: Majar: This word is an archaic way of saying "Hungarian", aka Magyar. Must refer to a Hungarian type of flintlock? 2: Shashkhan: Perhaps referring to Shishane guns? 3: Tersmi: Most likely, I think it refers to guns from Dersim, or produced in Dersim style (Which I am personally not aware of). 4: Stambuli: Pretty obviously referring to guns from Istanbul 5: Navhulu: Not the faintest of an idea what this could be referring to. This is nothing all that out of the ordinary. In nearby Georgia, many local weapons bore names of faraway geographic areas as well (Pranguli, or French, Swords. Khirimi, or Crimean, guns were widely known in Georgia). It is now just a case of isolating and finding examples of this rich variety of weaponry. Once again, any help would be greatly appreciated. Attached Images

4th April 2024, 10:19 AM	#5
AvtoGaz Member Join Date: Dec 2022 Posts: 37	I wanted to talk a bit more about martial arts and training in this area, as well as arms production. Most sources I am reading nowadays seem to suggest that arms production was at a very high level here. Especially in the sub-region of Talvorik in Sasun, where metal was extracted. Incidentally, this was also the region of Sasun most independent from Kurdish influence, said to have boasted the bravest men. According to an ethnographer who visited the region in 1895, the weapons produced in Sasun were very well known, not just in the highland districts, but in the neighboring lowland regions as well. According to them, the locally produced "Shashkhan" guns were the most prized item that hailed from this region. For more information and sources, see my medium post linked above. Besides the aforementioned "Sword and Martal" ritualistic fencing, training exercises and dueling forms with Sword and Buckler are described with their own names in the dictionary of Sasun dialectical words in Petoyan's book. To train with Sword and Buckler is known as "Martalug", while the regular (not ritual) friendly fencing game in Sasun was known as Martlutse. Interestingly, these words have roughly the same meaning as another, much more well-known form of fencing found in nearby Georgia, Khevsur Parikaoba. "Pari" refers to the local Khevsur buckler shield, and "aoba" refers to an action as I understand it (please correct me if I am wrong). In a similar vein, "Martal" refers to the Van Highlanders buckler, and "ug" roughly refers to an action. Interestingly, some photographs of locals from these areas using bows have been preserved. Based on one of the photos, I would guess children trained with these before moving on to firearms. Pictured below: 1: Armenians from Van (if you look carefully, you can see they are carrying bows). 2 and 3: Assyrian Tribesmen from Hakkari Attached Images

30th December 2023, 03:31 PM	#1
AvtoGaz Member Join Date: Dec 2022 Posts: 37	Thank you Ian and Jim, I am very grateful to hear that you found my research interesting! In terms of the Kurdish-Armenian yatagans, although I doubt that they hail from this region in particular im sure they come from somewhere nearby in Anatolia that undoubtedly had a very similar social situation. It's clear much more research is needed to finally seal the deal on those, but as I understand it this forum was instrumental in finding the true origins of Laz Bichaqs, so hopefully, if there is enough interest that case can finally be closed someday in the future! Although Khevsur martial culture and their system of Parikaoba dueling was far more robust, I nonetheless agree that there are some striking parallels. This could also just be due to their very similar circumstances, being extremely isolated mountain folk who carefully preserved ancient traditions and always were quick to defend their traditional autonomy. In the case of the Khevsurs, they were constantly being attacked by the neighboring Kist people, which explains why their martial culture was much more developed. Although they are more related to the ethnographic side of this presentation rather than the discussion on the weapons themselves, I wanted to bring up two other extremely important elements of the local martial culture. The traditional epic "Daredevils of Sasun" and the local ancient war dance "Yarkhushta". "Daredevils of Sasun" is an epic poem, that was transmitted entirely through oral tradition. It tells tales of the resistance of the local Armenian population to the Arab invaders during the Middle Ages, so its oral tradition is centuries upon centuries old. As this poem was very well known in many regions of Armenia, it is part of what gave the residents of these highlands such a reputation as fierce warriors quick to resist injustice and oppression. As their customs detailed above and their revolts against Ottoman rule proved, this reputation was certainly deserved to the bitter end of their existence. "Yarkhushta", for its part, is a local martial dance. I will leave a link where you can check it out below, but it is essentially a representation of the clash between two armies. Two opposing groups of armed men, consisting of equally sized teams where each opponent would be paired up with one other, would approach each other while clapping and singing. Then, they would strike their hands together extremely hard, then withdraw and repeat the process until one side deemed that it had "won". Often, this was repeated until some of the participant's hands had been injured. Given the etymology of this word, which is something like "Friend of the weapon", it seems likely that at some point this dance was a military training exercise and was perhaps performed with real weapons. Click here to see a performance of Yarkhushta by the Karin ensemble.

6th April 2024, 06:33 PM	#6
wildwolberine Member Join Date: May 2023 Location: San Antonio Posts: 121	Would definitely be interested in more information about their archery equipment. I assume they are self bows?