Too crude to be a Machete ?

Jim McDougall · 9th November 2023, 04:56 PM

Excellent and fascinating examples Wayne!
While of course spending most focus on historical swords and edged weapons of earlier times, these examples, though often deemed somewhat scornfully by many collectors of antique arms as 'militaria' have their own intrinsic value historically.

When I first began collecting as a young boy, I went into war surplus stores, WWII had been over barely a decade, and old military gear provided us with the camping equipment we used. There were old bayonets literally in barrels, and could be bought for 'loose change'......my exact 'budget'.

As I bought these, I became curious on the differences between the various forms, and nationalities etc. ........this was the root of my obsession with the study of edged weapons as I sought any references to identify them over the years.

I remember many years later, the late RDC Evans was writing articles solely on bayonets in an arms magazine, and I read this in amazement as he descriptively placed wonderful perspective on these common and ubiquitous arms. He became a good friend and remarkably, showed that a great deal of key information that pertained to markings etc. applied to swords, bringing new dimension to my appreciation of the larger scope of arms study.
I am not particularly drawn to guns, however I cannot describe the numbers of times I have found the clues and answers to questions regarding edged weapons in firearms references.

The Spanish American war was an intriguing conflict which provided the circumstances which brought resolution to many mysteries in the study of Spanish colonial edged weapons, with those of Cuba and connected as far as the Philippines. As Fernando notes, these factories were producing edged weapons for military forces, and often bayonets and 'machetes' fell into close association as the utilitarian function was typically most required.

No stone left unturned in serious arms study

fernando · 9th November 2023, 06:02 PM

You and your way, Jim. I appreciate listening to your collecting experiences during youth but, aren't we missing the point ? This topic, as submitted, being weaving considerations over artisanal machetes, is it within context comparing their variable specs. with a mass produced example like the 1881 military pattern ... whether you find it an excellent and fascinating example ?

PS
I later saw that you edited your post; sorry, too late !

Jim McDougall · 9th November 2023, 11:43 PM

I knew you'd be comin' Fernando, so I always go back and recheck to 'fine tune', even though never quite out of reach.

I guess its important to note that I am mostly interested in the historic aspects of arms, so of course I tend to find most items of some notable age 'fascinating' in one degree or another.
Also, having noted that my 'collecting and study' of weapons spans back to my youth, a most considerable number of years, it is hard to resist some degree of analogy in writing. I think it is highly typical of men my age to be unapologetic story tellers, just ask the grandkids! In positive notes on weapons being discussed, I always recall hearing of one of the most highly respected of the early collector/scholars, Sir Guy Laking, of whom it was said,
"...he would always find something kind to say about a fellow collectors object, however humble it was".
I see these weapons even in the 'militaria' class as interesting in their own right, just as are most items presented in this miscellania forum, which allows presentation outside the chronological boundaries of the others.

I suppose sort of a mantra, and that was written by Mr. Claude Blair, a kind man and brilliant scholar, who always had time to answer questions and it seems, followed in much the same manner.

It seems that 'my point' was about what inspired me to pursue the study of weapons, and while identifying them by comparitive differences, learning the history of them in thier use.

fernando · 10th November 2023, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... I always recall hearing of one of the most highly respected of the early collector/scholars, Sir Guy Laking, of whom it was said,"...he would always find something kind to say about a fellow collectors object, however humble it was". .

Absolutely Jim; a commendable attitude. I am sure Sir Laking was a sensitive person and had a fine way to do it; in a sincere but not exalting mode ... and in an innocuous manner concerning others in the room.

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Interested Party · 11th November 2023, 07:47 PM

Kronckew's lower example's handle is vaguely reminiscent of the machete in post Spanish(?) Machete Sword with horn grips.

As far as this post's original example goes, I have been perplexed by what looks like a small diameter piece of pipe welded to the blade as a tang or uncomfortable handle. Even weirder is the apparent split down the back if the blade?? Is this iron forge welded around the steel edge with the line being a cold shut welding flaw? I have looked at this every day and just scratch my head. I've seen a lot of homemade agricultural knives for different crops and uses. This one is an interesting and unique curio.

We seem to be developing a machete data base in this forum as of late.

fernando · 12th November 2023, 10:33 AM

I don't have the luggage to exchange ideas on the handle fixation nor on the blade forging method, but i see that the handle length (only) fits a small grip like mine. It could be that this was the only piece of pipe the owner (smith) had at hand. I did post the blade split picture in purpose to call attention, but only now i notice that this happens in both sides, as both forte edges have the same thickness in the first third section.

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Jim McDougall · 12th November 2023, 04:44 PM

Many scythes, and 'clearing' or cropping implements had hafts, thus were mounted on these or perhaps even longer, in the manner of pole arms.
Recalling the idiom, 'swords into plough shares' which reflects the cases of weapon into tool, or clearly vice versa, as glaives, bill hooks and the like.

Whatever the case with this item, it is fascinating for its rustic character and clearly obvious age, its 'mystery' not withstanding.

The handle is perhaps not viable for most modern hands, if indeed this was the intent, but overall the hands of individuals centuries ago much as their physical size and structure was generally smaller. However, the 'socket' idea seems quite plausible.

9th November 2023, 04:56 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,583	Excellent and fascinating examples Wayne! While of course spending most focus on historical swords and edged weapons of earlier times, these examples, though often deemed somewhat scornfully by many collectors of antique arms as 'militaria' have their own intrinsic value historically. When I first began collecting as a young boy, I went into war surplus stores, WWII had been over barely a decade, and old military gear provided us with the camping equipment we used. There were old bayonets literally in barrels, and could be bought for 'loose change'......my exact 'budget'. As I bought these, I became curious on the differences between the various forms, and nationalities etc. ........this was the root of my obsession with the study of edged weapons as I sought any references to identify them over the years. I remember many years later, the late RDC Evans was writing articles solely on bayonets in an arms magazine, and I read this in amazement as he descriptively placed wonderful perspective on these common and ubiquitous arms. He became a good friend and remarkably, showed that a great deal of key information that pertained to markings etc. applied to swords, bringing new dimension to my appreciation of the larger scope of arms study. I am not particularly drawn to guns, however I cannot describe the numbers of times I have found the clues and answers to questions regarding edged weapons in firearms references. The Spanish American war was an intriguing conflict which provided the circumstances which brought resolution to many mysteries in the study of Spanish colonial edged weapons, with those of Cuba and connected as far as the Philippines. As Fernando notes, these factories were producing edged weapons for military forces, and often bayonets and 'machetes' fell into close association as the utilitarian function was typically most required. No stone left unturned in serious arms study Last edited by Jim McDougall; 9th November 2023 at 05:09 PM.

9th November 2023, 06:02 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Wayne not minding ... You and your way, Jim. I appreciate listening to your collecting experiences during youth but, aren't we missing the point ? This topic, as submitted, being weaving considerations over artisanal machetes, is it within context comparing their variable specs. with a mass produced example like the 1881 military pattern ... whether you find it an excellent and fascinating example ? PS I later saw that you edited your post; sorry, too late !

12th November 2023, 10:33 AM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	I don't have the luggage to exchange ideas on the handle fixation nor on the blade forging method, but i see that the handle length (only) fits a small grip like mine. It could be that this was the only piece of pipe the owner (smith) had at hand. I did post the blade split picture in purpose to call attention, but only now i notice that this happens in both sides, as both forte edges have the same thickness in the first third section. - Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 12th November 2023 at 12:01 PM.

9th November 2023, 11:43 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,583	I knew you'd be comin' Fernando, so I always go back and recheck to 'fine tune', even though never quite out of reach. I guess its important to note that I am mostly interested in the historic aspects of arms, so of course I tend to find most items of some notable age 'fascinating' in one degree or another. Also, having noted that my 'collecting and study' of weapons spans back to my youth, a most considerable number of years, it is hard to resist some degree of analogy in writing. I think it is highly typical of men my age to be unapologetic story tellers, just ask the grandkids! In positive notes on weapons being discussed, I always recall hearing of one of the most highly respected of the early collector/scholars, Sir Guy Laking, of whom it was said, "...he would always find something kind to say about a fellow collectors object, however humble it was". I see these weapons even in the 'militaria' class as interesting in their own right, just as are most items presented in this miscellania forum, which allows presentation outside the chronological boundaries of the others. I suppose sort of a mantra, and that was written by Mr. Claude Blair, a kind man and brilliant scholar, who always had time to answer questions and it seems, followed in much the same manner. It seems that 'my point' was about what inspired me to pursue the study of weapons, and while identifying them by comparitive differences, learning the history of them in thier use.

11th November 2023, 07:47 PM	#5
Interested Party Member Join Date: Dec 2019 Location: Eastern Sierra Posts: 509	Kronckew's lower example's handle is vaguely reminiscent of the machete in post *Spanish(?) Machete Sword with horn grips*. As far as this post's original example goes, I have been perplexed by what looks like a small diameter piece of pipe welded to the blade as a tang or uncomfortable handle. Even weirder is the apparent split down the back if the blade?? Is this iron forge welded around the steel edge with the line being a cold shut welding flaw? I have looked at this every day and just scratch my head. I've seen a lot of homemade agricultural knives for different crops and uses. This one is an interesting and unique curio. We seem to be developing a machete data base in this forum as of late.

12th November 2023, 04:44 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,583	Many scythes, and 'clearing' or cropping implements had hafts, thus were mounted on these or perhaps even longer, in the manner of pole arms. Recalling the idiom, 'swords into plough shares' which reflects the cases of weapon into tool, or clearly vice versa, as glaives, bill hooks and the like. Whatever the case with this item, it is fascinating for its rustic character and clearly obvious age, its 'mystery' not withstanding. The handle is perhaps not viable for most modern hands, if indeed this was the intent, but overall the hands of individuals centuries ago much as their physical size and structure was generally smaller. However, the 'socket' idea seems quite plausible.