THE ENGLISH LONG BOW.

Peter Hudson · 4th October 2023, 02:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward C.

Were the bodkin points hardened ? As a amateur metal worker I would think that would be key to getting an initial "bite" on plate armor, so it would not skid off on an oblique impact.

Yes they may have done that although it seems that wooden arrows had the habit of snapping since they didnt exactly fly absolutely straight thus on impact were unstable and could break ... Interestingly had the arrows been made of metal they would probably have sailed straight through the armour...Anyway it does seem that greasing the shafts did enable much better penetration of shields and armour not to mention the damage to horses.

Armoured Knights at Agincourt thrown off their horses because they ...the horses ...had been hit by arrows...causing their riders to be ejected into the muddy battlefield would have been in a bad way and likely to have both been either badly injured and possibly trampled by those just behind them. This would have been bad enough had it only affected a few of the cavalry however, scores were dropped which must have caused mayhem and chaoss......The storm of arrows was enough to make the Knights turn their heads away so there was less chance of getting an arrow through their visors...

Regards, Peter Hudson.

Triarii · 4th October 2023, 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Hudson

Yes they may have done that although it seems that wooden arrows had the habit of snapping since they didnt exactly fly absolutely straight thus on impact were unstable and could break ... Interestingly had the arrows been made of metal they would probably have sailed straight through the armour...Anyway it does seem that greasing the shafts did enable much better penetration of shields and armour not to mention the damage to horses.

Armoured Knights at Agincourt thrown off their horses because they ...the horses ...had been hit by arrows...causing their riders to be ejected into the muddy battlefield would have been in a bad way and likely to have both been either badly injured and possibly trampled by those just behind them. This would have been bad enough had it only affected a few of the cavalry however, scores were dropped which must have caused mayhem and chaoss......The storm of arrows was enough to make the Knights turn their heads away so there was less chance of getting an arrow through their visors...

Regards, Peter Hudson.

Good point about chaos. Firepower v melee infantry or cavalry discussions usually don't cover the impact on the attackers of the disruption caused by people and horses falling or shying as they are hit. It'd become a significant obstacle, slowing progress very quickly.

Peter Hudson · 5th October 2023, 07:09 PM

See https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Schola_Gladiatoria

....for some detail on Matt Easton who not only gets very involved in Swords and Armour but other weapons ...Archery is one of his favourites.

Peter Hudson

Peter Hudson · 5th October 2023, 07:30 PM

English archers are often thought of firing their bows at a high angle but that is not the case . Here they are in direct close quarter battle range using the flat trajectory of their long bows. Note their outfits...since they were also armed like normal soldiers ready to finish off an opponent. See their head dress... armoured helmets some with the visor up some down. It can be seen that with such powerful Longbows the archers have to almost climb into their bows.

Peter Hudson.

Peter Hudson · 5th October 2023, 09:29 PM

Please see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1dFzFwgrfE which is a superb discussion with Tod and Tobias at the Wallace Collection in London. Actually there are two videos the second is a brilliant talk on some of the best Armour at the Wallace....

The first video considers myths and facts focussed on Agincourt the battle. Towards the end of the Agincourt session mention is given to the use of beeswax being used on arrows. Later in a separate video this method of improving penetration is tested out by Tod on one of his workshops...

Peter Hudson.

Peter Hudson · 13th October 2023, 08:04 PM

Please see https://uk.video.search.yahoo.com/yh...37&action=view

A video of the artefacts . including English Longbows and arrows recovered from the Mary Rose ...

kronckew · 14th October 2023, 10:06 AM

Peter, I think the metallurgy of the period would not have allowed for making all-metal arrows light enough to be fired at the velocities required to penetrate their armour. Some experimental archaeology may be required.

Waxing the arrows could also have prevented them absorbing water in the rain & warping. They are occasionally varnished to make them more weather resistant.

Turkish flight arrows were indeed an aerodynamic shape & minimal flights. Some has grooves in the rear portion in lieu of flights to assist stabilization. Their composite recurved bows were more efficient at allowing long draws with shorter bows, but were more prone to weather damage and warping from mishandling as they are unwaxed/varnished to save weight. And they took a lot longer to make properly. They would have bone knocks and points for lightness. They were generally shorter than normal target or war arrows, and generally used with an overdraw device.

5th October 2023, 07:09 PM	#3
Peter Hudson Member Join Date: Jul 2020 Posts: 315	Matt Easton See https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Schola_Gladiatoria ....for some detail on Matt Easton who not only gets very involved in Swords and Armour but other weapons ...Archery is one of his favourites. Peter Hudson

5th October 2023, 07:30 PM	#4
Peter Hudson Member Join Date: Jul 2020 Posts: 315	English archers are often thought of firing their bows at a high angle but that is not the case . Here they are in direct close quarter battle range using the flat trajectory of their long bows. Note their outfits...since they were also armed like normal soldiers ready to finish off an opponent. See their head dress... armoured helmets some with the visor up some down. It can be seen that with such powerful Longbows the archers have to almost climb into their bows. Peter Hudson. Attached Images

13th October 2023, 08:04 PM	#6
Peter Hudson Member Join Date: Jul 2020 Posts: 315	Longbows and Arrows on Please see https://uk.video.search.yahoo.com/yh...37&action=view A video of the artefacts . including English Longbows and arrows recovered from the Mary Rose ...

14th October 2023, 10:06 AM	#7
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,224	Peter, I think the metallurgy of the period would not have allowed for making all-metal arrows light enough to be fired at the velocities required to penetrate their armour. Some experimental archaeology may be required. Waxing the arrows could also have prevented them absorbing water in the rain & warping. They are occasionally varnished to make them more weather resistant. Turkish flight arrows were indeed an aerodynamic shape & minimal flights. Some has grooves in the rear portion in lieu of flights to assist stabilization. Their composite recurved bows were more efficient at allowing long draws with shorter bows, but were more prone to weather damage and warping from mishandling as they are unwaxed/varnished to save weight. And they took a lot longer to make properly. They would have bone knocks and points for lightness. They were generally shorter than normal target or war arrows, and generally used with an overdraw device. Attached Images

5th October 2023, 09:29 PM	#5
Peter Hudson Member Join Date: Jul 2020 Posts: 315	Please see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1dFzFwgrfE which is a superb discussion with Tod and Tobias at the Wallace Collection in London. Actually there are two videos the second is a brilliant talk on some of the best Armour at the Wallace.... The first video considers myths and facts focussed on Agincourt the battle. Towards the end of the Agincourt session mention is given to the use of beeswax being used on arrows. Later in a separate video this method of improving penetration is tested out by Tod on one of his workshops... Peter Hudson.