Omani dagger? Filipino knife? and ivory hilt dha

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Sajen

My honest collection of sewars.

Nice array Detlef.

Would several of these not be classified as Tumbok Lada based on the betal nut crusher hulu type?

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by Gavin Nugent

Nice array Detlef.

Would several of these not be classified as Tumbok Lada based on the betal nut crusher hulu type?

While quite similar to many sewars, "tumbuk lada" have considerably chubbier hilts, made usually from ivory and also display some more subtle differences in terms of construction of front bolster and scabbard.

However, since the demarcation line between a tumbuk lada and a sewar is rather fuzzy, there is much confusion between them.

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

While quite similar to many sewars, "tumbuk lada" have considerably chubbier hilts, made usually from ivory and also display some more subtle differences in terms of construction of front bolster and scabbard.

However, since the demarcation line between a tumbuk lada and a sewar is rather fuzzy, there is much confusion between them.

My understanding from Malaysian colleagues is that it is purely the hulu shape that is the defining factor vs regional or status material flair.

Do you not consider 4 of Detlef's as Pepper Crusher hulu? I'd certainly consider #3 & 4 in this this image as Tumbuk Lada.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...0Tumbuk%20Lada.

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by Gavin Nugent

My understanding from Malaysian colleagues is that it is purely the hulu shape that is the defining factor vs regional or status material flair.

Do you not consider 4 of Detlef's as Pepper Crusher hulu? I'd certainly consider #3 & 4 in this this image as Tumbuk Lada.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...0Tumbuk%20Lada.

3... definitely classic tumbuk lada (you must notice the slightly different scabbard as well).

4... I would call "sewar"... a rather classic one in my eyes.

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

3... definitely classic tumbuk lada (you must notice the slightly different scabbard as well).

4... I would call "sewar"... a rather classic one in my eyes.

I do notice all the differences amongst the variations of sewar and tumbuk lada presented.

Sadly Zonnevelds book lacked Malay examples, the images focus on the classic Sumatra style, yet it is very clear in the text what the hulu of the type resembles, which (and I'm happy to provide more images) is that seen in #4 too. It has all the classic curves, peaks and angles that the big brother next to it has.

Here also is the extract from Gardner, 1936 from which Zonneveld presented the text, it may or may not offer clarity.

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by Gavin Nugent

I do notice all the differences amongst the variations of sewar and tumbuk lada presented.

Sadly Zonnevelds book lacked Malay examples, the images focus on the classic Sumatra style, yet it is very clear in the text what the hulu of the type resembles, which (and I'm happy to provide more images) is that seen in #4 too. It has all the classic curves, peaks and angles that the big brother next to it has.

Here also is the extract from Gardner, 1936 from which Zonneveld presented the text, it may or may not offer clarity.

Very interesting! Thank you Gavin!

The border between sewar and tumbuk lada is indeed fuzzy.

So, then I guess that no4 could be called tumbuk lada too.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Gavin Nugent

Nice array Detlef.

Would several of these not be classified as Tumbok Lada based on the betal nut crusher hulu type?

Hi Gav,

I like to go with Albert G. van Zonneveld like Marius write before to distinguish between these both types of daggers. But like you write are called sewars with these "pepper crusher" handles by collectors and also people in Indonesia and Malaysia tumbok lada. It's just a name game.

Regards,
Detlef

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hi Gav,

I like to go with Albert G. van Zonneveld like Marius write before to distinguish between these both types of daggers. But like you write are called sewars with these "pepper crusher" handles by collectors and also people in Indonesia and Malaysia tumbok lada. It's just a name game.

Regards,
Detlef

I think the other thing to consider here Detlef is, although referenced, the Malay states were not part of the work covered by Albert. Perhaps Albert may pursue these regions at a later date if another life time is available to him... he has quite the publication achievement already.

I personally prefer to rely on key sources like Gardner and those who are culturally Malaysian.

[Sajen]

Malaysian badiks and sewars are another thing, Malays call sewar like daggers as badik, see here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ht=malay+badik and also here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ht=malay+badik

Like said, it's a name game!

[David]

Originally Posted by Gavin Nugent

I personally prefer to rely on key sources like Gardner and those who are culturally Malaysian.

While Gardner's work is perhaps seminal i would not personally depend upon it specifically for accuracy.

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by David

While Gardner's work is perhaps seminal i would not personally depend upon it specifically for accuracy.

What's the why behind the comment on accuracy?

Some may have considered him crackers, he did however have the benefit on living in Malaysia for quite some time, Borneo and Perak if I recall, and he had a genuine interest in the people and culture some 25 years before his work was published in 1936.

The item you present here is the same piece you posted in another forum where it was received as a Tumbuk Lada too... I think within these pages it carried various names too.

I totally understand the dilemma, the passing of time and various cultural alignments place conjecture on the "name" of items.

I refer to Marius's note about the sheath timber angle for example and look to this http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4912 and see the same stylised angles.

Another thread showed a Minang Sewar I sold as a Tumbuk Lada, yet it was identical style, manufacture, and proportions to another Minang Sewar with black coral seen in Zanneveld's work, which also sold to the same collector...

I read comments that the Tumbuk Lada (referring to the BIG ivory hilt types) have a straight blade and fullers compared to the deep drop of a Sewar blade, yet, that one in the image above I shared, it has the same curve and drop as the silver Sewar to to left in the same image.

Is it best to tear up all the history books and simply name them knives? Or does that then enter in to the is it a knife or a dagger based on design or application... some framework needs to be adopted, and I personally feel the forefathers who went to the trouble to document these things were in a better position than we were, and phonetics aside, they had a far greater accuracy being there first hand without greater influences at work.

[Sajen]

I have known and still know people who would call these daggers as bade-bade! We shouldn't insist on a specific name.

Attached a picture with a "sewar" in up, down under a Malay badik, an unknown Sumatran dagger and four different Batak daggers, in complete down a "tumbok lada".

[Sajen]

The same daggers with their scabbards so far present.