I'd like to see cross cultural sundang melayu kerises

[milandro]

thank you , I was really looking more at crossover krises with pamor on the blade and a clearer mix of the two different traditions.

The ones you suggest are certainly fine specimens

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by milandro

thank you , I was really looking more at crossover krises with pamor on the blade and a clearer mix of the two different traditions.

The ones you suggest are certainly fine specimens

Malay sundangs normally don't show pamor!

[A. G. Maisey]

Pasar Turi, Surabaya.

[Gustav]

Well, Malay Sundang can have Pamor exactly like their Moro counterparts, but in diference of them also can have Gonjo with Pamor.

There are Malay Sundang which are parts of Perak and Terengganu regalia at least from second half of 19th cent.

[Rick]

There is also the detail of the blade's tang; many of the alleged Malay examples have a round tang; most Moro krises have a flat tang.

[milandro]

Originally Posted by Rick

There is also the detail of the blade's tang; many of the alleged Malay examples have a round tang; most Moro krises have a flat tang.

thank you, I would certainly like to see some examples of your choice

[A. G. Maisey]

Post #1 shows a keris & dress that was most probably released to the world through Pasar Turi in Surabaya. The keris itself, ie, blade has been made by Madurese craftsmen in either Sumenep area of Madura or in Surabaya & hinterland. Time frame is post 1980. This is not a guess.

In Post 11 the keris on the reddish backcloth has the same or similar parentage. Again, not a guess.

The keris with 7 luk & twist core presents every indication that it is 19th century Brunei. My opinion in this case is based on a similar keris that I have in my care & that was the state execution keris of Brunei, dating from 1842, and the fact that the only other keris of this type that I have handled also came from Brunei.

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Gustav

Well, Malay Sundang can have Pamor exactly like their Moro counterparts, but in diference of them also can have Gonjo with Pamor.

There are Malay Sundang which are parts of Perak and Terengganu regalia at least from second half of 19th cent.

Perfectly noted Gustav. I've one such piece here with twistcore blade and gongo, also a suasa strap and grip... speaking with another learned collector here, he has suggested late 18th century for its age.

Gavin

[milandro]

Originally Posted by Gavin Nugent

Perfectly noted Gustav. I've one such piece here with twistcore blade and gongo, also a suasa strap and grip... speaking with another learned collector here, he has suggested late 18th century for its age.

Gavin

would like to see this example, please

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Gustav

Well, Malay Sundang can have Pamor exactly like their Moro counterparts, but in diference of them also can have Gonjo with Pamor.

Yes, they can be laminated for sure but don't get etched with warangan like the recent example Milandro has shown. I think that he means this.

[milandro]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Yes, they can be laminated for sure but don't get etched with warangan like the recent example Milandro has shown. I think that he means this.

yes, this is what I mean.

I have seen a number of modernly made Melayu Sundang kerises with pamor made visible and evident by washing with Warangan on internet .

If you look for the term " Sundang Melayu" Keris" you will come across several and also on Youtube there are a number of videos by Malay makers and collectors.

Undoubtedly the vaste majority are modern made krises (much frowned upon here I gather) . I would still like to see examples. I am not at liberty to publish what I can see because they are all items for sale (with the exception of the one shown above which was auctioned a long time ago and beloved at that time to a Dutch dealer ).


In the past there have been posts showing such krises

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=98814


there are also other one on the other forum like this sulu sundang twist core which may qualify

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=17344&page=1

[David]

Originally Posted by milandro

Undoubtedly the vaste majority are modern made krises (much frowned upon here I gather) .

I see no reason to frown upon modern made keris per se. The keris is a living art form and there are many modern keris being made which are quite good. What i might have less regard for, however, is a modern blade made by Madurese smiths presenting itself as a Moro kris, or something like that.
I don't think the archaic kris with the twist core you show in post #11 qualifies as as the type of Sundang Melayu you are seeking answers about. Nice kris though.

[Gustav]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Yes, they can be laminated for sure but don't get etched with warangan like the recent example Milandro has shown. I think that he means this.

I am not so sure about that, having seen at least one Malay Sundang WITHOUT Pamor stained pitch black, and the stain wasn't new. In this case I think it was stained with realgar indeed.

Of course there are also other staining methods used on Malay Peninsula, with contrast being not so bold. I suppose the Sundang in the picture from 1907 has a lighter stain, and Albert's Sundang here has traces of what seems to be an older stain:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=Malay+sundang

[A. G. Maisey]

Re my post #13

"The keris with 7 luk & twist core presents every indication that it is 19th century Brunei. My opinion in this case is based on a similar keris that I have in my care & that was the state execution keris of Brunei, dating from 1842, and the fact that the only other keris of this type that I have handled also came from Brunei."

I have had a chance to get back to my notes, I have in fact seen several of this type of keris, but have only handled two, mine & one other.