Keris for consideration

SidJ · 1st June 2023, 09:46 PM

Hi Alan
On the finish of hilt and wrangka its not varnish. I just oiled them with good old linseed oil. It has dried to a glossy finish.

A. G. Maisey · 1st June 2023, 11:40 PM

Thanks for that clarification Sid.

Boiled linseed oil can provide an attractive finish for wood, there is a finish that used to be used on rifle & gun stocks that is known as "London oil finish", but this has to a very large extent now been replaced by more modern finishes.

In my late teens I began making rifle stocks, it was hobby work, I did it for a lot of years, but I think the last one I made was about 30 years ago, & that was free pistol stock for a TOZ, not a rifle stock, anyway, I used London oil finish on a lot of the stocks I made. It is a very lengthy and time consuming process, it requires hand rubbing the oil into the wood over an extended period of time, a little at a time. I spent a lot of time as a kid doing hand rubbed oil finishes on bespoke furniture.

Most people who use linseed oil on wood use too much and do not hand rub it over time. The traditional London oil finish gives a subdued satin glow to wood, it looks great, but in reality it is not such a wonderful finish and requires constant maintenance. When using linseed oil for a finish the surface of the wood must not be left wet, the oil must be hand rubbed into the wood, not once, but many, many times and the surface must always be left dry.

There is an American "London oil finish" that is a better finish, and there are commercially prepared stock finishes that can produce a very good lookalike London finish if done correctly. These days I like Birchwood Casey Truoil.

Anyway, your glossy oil finish is not the way a linseed oil finish should look, there is a heap of info online about how to do a London oil finish, it might be a good idea to access some of this info.

Anyway, that's the finish, but I feel that at some point this wrongko has had some fairly aggressive sanding done on it, I'm looking at the lower face of the long side of the atasan as I'm writing this, and that seems to show variation in levels, as the face approaches the foot of the atasan it rises to meet the foot, resulting in a less than straight line, it can be difficult to maintain a straight line in sanding this area, when I have needed to do this, I've used the garnet paper over the blade of a dinner knife.

Rick · 2nd June 2023, 12:09 AM

What kind of filler was used on the voids of the handle I wonder?

A. G. Maisey · 2nd June 2023, 01:09 AM

Just a guess Rick, but I think maybe something like some sort of epoxy mixed with sawdust?

Gustav · 2nd June 2023, 01:52 PM

I agree, Sampir could have had agressive sanding. I cannot recognise it as antique by details of carving (and/or patina).

Hilt cup is close to an old form, of which I too have seen some examples.

Regarding Gonjo - I also am not particularly interested in Keris from South Sulawesi, or, as it might be with this Keris, perhaps even "Tangguh Kupang", but the examples I have seen so far normally don't have Gonjo made from differently looking material.
One more detail - Jenggot has a comparatively well preserved Dha. It is normal even for this kind of Keris to have similarly carved Dha on Rondha Nunut and Greneng. Dha on Rondha Nunut is quite eroded, we actually see only the very bottom of it (if there is something from original Dha left at all)- so definitely material has been lost at Wadidang.
In that case Greneng on Gonjo is not simply eroded, it is made to match the already eroded Dha of Rondha Nunut - or Dha on RN was recut together with the Dha on Gonjo.

SidJ · 2nd June 2023, 08:28 PM

A bit of context may help. This keris was not sold by a keris seller. It was one of a bunch of Asian daggers sold at auction. Its merits or flaws were not stated. It was just a keris among other far more illustrous companions. It came from a dead western collector who was primarily s gun collector. I dont think the scabbard has been sanded or finished any differently to other ones I have. At least I cant tell by looking at it closely. There was nothing riding on this keris. I dont think anyone tarted it up to sell. The blade had old surface rust on it which I removed. I oiled the wood parts to freshen up the dull wood. I think its an honest piece with no shenanigans or scurrillous behaviour designed to boost value. Begs the question why anyone would go to such great lengths as surmised to repair what to me is fairly average keris. Cost vs benefit and all that...

kai · 3rd June 2023, 07:15 AM

Hello Sid,

Thanks for the background!

Quote:

A bit of context may help. This keris was not sold by a keris seller. It was one of a bunch of Asian daggers sold at auction. Its merits or flaws were not stated. It was just a keris among other far more illustrous companions. It came from a dead western collector who was primarily s gun collector. I dont think the scabbard has been sanded or finished any differently to other ones I have. At least I cant tell by looking at it closely. There was nothing riding on this keris. I dont think anyone tarted it up to sell. The blade had old surface rust on it which I removed. I oiled the wood parts to freshen up the dull wood. I think its an honest piece with no shenanigans or scurrillous behaviour designed to boost value. Begs the question why anyone would go to such great lengths as surmised to repair what to me is fairly average keris. Cost vs benefit and all that...

I'd guess that the deceased collector acquired these pieces in a similar condition as you received them. Many collectors keep acquiring pieces and the last replacements/refurbishments which we have been pointing out may very well be several decades old.

This is not a bad keris and many collectors have examples with similar repairs/etc. in their collections.

Regards,
Kai

SidJ · 3rd June 2023, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Thanks for that clarification Sid.

Boiled linseed oil can provide an attractive finish for wood, there is a finish that used to be used on rifle & gun stocks that is known as "London oil finish", but this has to a very large extent now been replaced by more modern finishes.

In my late teens I began making rifle stocks, it was hobby work, I did it for a lot of years, but I think the last one I made was about 30 years ago, & that was free pistol stock for a TOZ, not a rifle stock, anyway, I used London oil finish on a lot of the stocks I made. It is a very lengthy and time consuming process, it requires hand rubbing the oil into the wood over an extended period of time, a little at a time. I spent a lot of time as a kid doing hand rubbed oil finishes on bespoke furniture.

Most people who use linseed oil on wood use too much and do not hand rub it over time. The traditional London oil finish gives a subdued satin glow to wood, it looks great, but in reality it is not such a wonderful finish and requires constant maintenance. When using linseed oil for a finish the surface of the wood must not be left wet, the oil must be hand rubbed into the wood, not once, but many, many times and the surface must always be left dry.

There is an American "London oil finish" that is a better finish, and there are commercially prepared stock finishes that can produce a very good lookalike London finish if done correctly. These days I like Birchwood Casey Truoil.

Anyway, your glossy oil finish is not the way a linseed oil finish should look, there is a heap of info online about how to do a London oil finish, it might be a good idea to access some of this info.

Anyway, that's the finish, but I feel that at some point this wrongko has had some fairly aggressive sanding done on it, I'm looking at the lower face of the long side of the atasan as I'm writing this, and that seems to show variation in levels, as the face approaches the foot of the atasan it rises to meet the foot, resulting in a less than straight line, it can be difficult to maintain a straight line in sanding this area, when I have needed to do this, I've used the garnet paper over the blade of a dinner knife.

Hi Alan
Great point about my useless oiling job. I removed the excess oil with acetone and elbow grease. Its much better now without that slick tacky look and feel. I did rub in layers but got impatient towards the end and added too much that pooled. Thanks for the advice on this. As aways greatly appreciated. And please everyone I take nothing personally and welcome all opinions good bad and otherwise. All in the interest of learning and sharing knowledge. This forum is the best I have found. Its like home cooking compared to fast food.

2nd June 2023, 01:52 PM	#5
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,295	I agree, Sampir could have had agressive sanding. I cannot recognise it as antique by details of carving (and/or patina). Hilt cup is close to an old form, of which I too have seen some examples. Regarding Gonjo - I also am not particularly interested in Keris from South Sulawesi, or, as it might be with this Keris, perhaps even "Tangguh Kupang", but the examples I have seen so far normally don't have Gonjo made from differently looking material. One more detail - Jenggot has a comparatively well preserved Dha. It is normal even for this kind of Keris to have similarly carved Dha on Rondha Nunut and Greneng. Dha on Rondha Nunut is quite eroded, we actually see only the very bottom of it (if there is something from original Dha left at all)- so definitely material has been lost at Wadidang. In that case Greneng on Gonjo is not simply eroded, it is made to match the already eroded Dha of Rondha Nunut - or Dha on RN was recut together with the Dha on Gonjo. Attached Images Last edited by Gustav; 2nd June 2023 at 02:27 PM.

1st June 2023, 09:46 PM	#1
SidJ Member Join Date: Apr 2020 Posts: 222	Hi Alan On the finish of hilt and wrangka its not varnish. I just oiled them with good old linseed oil. It has dried to a glossy finish.

1st June 2023, 11:40 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,048	Thanks for that clarification Sid. Boiled linseed oil can provide an attractive finish for wood, there is a finish that used to be used on rifle & gun stocks that is known as "London oil finish", but this has to a very large extent now been replaced by more modern finishes. In my late teens I began making rifle stocks, it was hobby work, I did it for a lot of years, but I think the last one I made was about 30 years ago, & that was free pistol stock for a TOZ, not a rifle stock, anyway, I used London oil finish on a lot of the stocks I made. It is a very lengthy and time consuming process, it requires hand rubbing the oil into the wood over an extended period of time, a little at a time. I spent a lot of time as a kid doing hand rubbed oil finishes on bespoke furniture. Most people who use linseed oil on wood use too much and do not hand rub it over time. The traditional London oil finish gives a subdued satin glow to wood, it looks great, but in reality it is not such a wonderful finish and requires constant maintenance. When using linseed oil for a finish the surface of the wood must not be left wet, the oil must be hand rubbed into the wood, not once, but many, many times and the surface must always be left dry. There is an American "London oil finish" that is a better finish, and there are commercially prepared stock finishes that can produce a very good lookalike London finish if done correctly. These days I like Birchwood Casey Truoil. Anyway, your glossy oil finish is not the way a linseed oil finish should look, there is a heap of info online about how to do a London oil finish, it might be a good idea to access some of this info. Anyway, that's the finish, but I feel that at some point this wrongko has had some fairly aggressive sanding done on it, I'm looking at the lower face of the long side of the atasan as I'm writing this, and that seems to show variation in levels, as the face approaches the foot of the atasan it rises to meet the foot, resulting in a less than straight line, it can be difficult to maintain a straight line in sanding this area, when I have needed to do this, I've used the garnet paper over the blade of a dinner knife.

2nd June 2023, 12:09 AM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,347	What kind of filler was used on the voids of the handle I wonder?

2nd June 2023, 01:09 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,048	Just a guess Rick, but I think maybe something like some sort of epoxy mixed with sawdust?

2nd June 2023, 08:28 PM	#6
SidJ Member Join Date: Apr 2020 Posts: 222	A bit of context may help. This keris was not sold by a keris seller. It was one of a bunch of Asian daggers sold at auction. Its merits or flaws were not stated. It was just a keris among other far more illustrous companions. It came from a dead western collector who was primarily s gun collector. I dont think the scabbard has been sanded or finished any differently to other ones I have. At least I cant tell by looking at it closely. There was nothing riding on this keris. I dont think anyone tarted it up to sell. The blade had old surface rust on it which I removed. I oiled the wood parts to freshen up the dull wood. I think its an honest piece with no shenanigans or scurrillous behaviour designed to boost value. Begs the question why anyone would go to such great lengths as surmised to repair what to me is fairly average keris. Cost vs benefit and all that...