Swish of the Kris - For Wayan :)

Mark · 27th June 2006, 05:27 PM

It would not be the first time that the ban was "bent." There are numerous examples of Islamic art depicting human and animal figures - I found a couple here: http://www.lacma.org/islamic_art/lia.htm.

Was this a total ban on depicting the human form, or was it specific in some way? I remember seeing painting that contained the figure of the Prophet Mohammed, but with his face completely hidden by a veil, which I think was how the ban was complied with in that case. How strictly it was enforced might have just depended on who was in charge at the time.

micas · 27th June 2006, 05:45 PM

Here's an article on the subject.

http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;...lam&sbid=lc03b

nechesh · 27th June 2006, 07:33 PM

Thank you Micas for that exellent article. As i stated, not so cut and dry as some might think.

I believe you will even see hadith enforced differently in different areas of Indonesia. Certainly it doesn't apply in Bali, but other areas are more strict and i believe it would be much harder to find an unabstracted human form on, say, a keris from Sulawesi.
Those are interesting examples that you show Wayne. The second one i think is a fairly recent example of a wayang figure and i have frequently seen whole collections of these characters in hilt form on ebay. I am not sure if they are being carved in Jawa or Madura (or perhaps elsewhere), but they are clearly being made for Javanese or Madurese keris, not Balinese ones. They are still carving these today AFAIK.
The horse and the winged horse (not to beat a dead horse, mind you

) is a common motif in Madura and i have one that is probably mid 20th C, so it seems obvious that these laws are not enforced in these areas in the modern age.

Tim Simmons · 27th June 2006, 08:01 PM

Human figures appear on many Persian carpets in the times before the 20th century, they always seem to be on the very best. Money talks

.

Mick · 28th June 2006, 06:42 PM

Actually Sulawesi has a beautiful form of Bima in gold as one of thier Keris Handles.

nechesh · 28th June 2006, 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mick

Actually Sulawesi has a beautiful form of Bima in gold as one of thier Keris Handles.

That sounds cool Mick. CAn you point us to any examples?

kai · 28th June 2006, 10:25 PM

Hello Mick,

Quote:

Actually Sulawesi has a beautiful form of Bima in gold as one of thier Keris Handles.

I guess you're referring to that gorgeous keris which is shown for example in van Zonneveld (p. 58). However that one was "collected" by the VOC before the middle of the 18th century or more likely during the 17th century. Thus, this is probably a pre-islamic piece...

I don't doubt that some of these hilts persisted after the conversion of the Bugis to Islam but are there any later examples (like 19th c.) known?

Regards,
Kai

Mick · 28th June 2006, 11:49 PM

Here is a scan of one piece in the museum in Jakarta. I took it from Hamzuri's Petunjuk Singkat Tentang Keris.

A dear friend of mine (who has departed this earth) had a piece which was similar to this one. I do not know where this piece is today.

Don't know what happened. I'll try again.

27th June 2006, 05:27 PM	#1
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	It would not be the first time that the ban was "bent." There are numerous examples of Islamic art depicting human and animal figures - I found a couple here: http://www.lacma.org/islamic_art/lia.htm. Was this a total ban on depicting the human form, or was it specific in some way? I remember seeing painting that contained the figure of the Prophet Mohammed, but with his face completely hidden by a veil, which I think was how the ban was complied with in that case. How strictly it was enforced might have just depended on who was in charge at the time.

27th June 2006, 05:45 PM	#2
micas Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 30	Here's an article on the subject. http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;...lam&sbid=lc03b

27th June 2006, 07:33 PM	#3
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Thank you Micas for that exellent article. As i stated, not so cut and dry as some might think. I believe you will even see hadith enforced differently in different areas of Indonesia. Certainly it doesn't apply in Bali, but other areas are more strict and i believe it would be much harder to find an unabstracted human form on, say, a keris from Sulawesi. Those are interesting examples that you show Wayne. The second one i think is a fairly recent example of a wayang figure and i have frequently seen whole collections of these characters in hilt form on ebay. I am not sure if they are being carved in Jawa or Madura (or perhaps elsewhere), but they are clearly being made for Javanese or Madurese keris, not Balinese ones. They are still carving these today AFAIK. The horse and the winged horse (not to beat a dead horse, mind you ) is a common motif in Madura and i have one that is probably mid 20th C, so it seems obvious that these laws are not enforced in these areas in the modern age.

27th June 2006, 08:01 PM	#4
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,856	Human figures appear on many Persian carpets in the times before the 20th century, they always seem to be on the very best. Money talks .

28th June 2006, 06:42 PM	#5
Mick Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Orlando Posts: 104	Actually Sulawesi has a beautiful form of Bima in gold as one of thier Keris Handles.

28th June 2006, 11:49 PM	#8
Mick Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Orlando Posts: 104	Here is a scan of one piece in the museum in Jakarta. I took it from Hamzuri's Petunjuk Singkat Tentang Keris. A dear friend of mine (who has departed this earth) had a piece which was similar to this one. I do not know where this piece is today. Don't know what happened. I'll try again.