Swish of the Kris - For Wayan :)

Rick · 27th June 2006, 04:15 PM

Just to put this ukiran argument to bed here is a keris handle from Jawa .

From Tammens

VANDOO · 27th June 2006, 05:18 PM

BEATING A DEAD HORSE ICON

WE HAVE NEEDED ONE OF THOSE FOR A WHILE

WHILE ALL THAT HAS BEEN SAID SO FAR IS TRUE AS TO TYPES OF KERIS HULU CARVINGS. I WOULD PUT FORWARD THE IDEA THAT WHEN THE MOSLEMS TOOK OVER IN JAVA PERHAPS THE LEADERS WERE UNDERSTANDING AND DIDN'T RULE WITH A IRON FIST AND ALOWED THOSE WHO WISHED TO REMAIN HINDU TO LIVE AND DO SO AFTER ALL THEY ALLOW BALI TO REMAIN HINDU. THAT WAY THE CHANGE WOULD HAVE TAKEN PLACE SLOWER AS THE CHILDREN AND YOUNG WERE EDUCATED IN THE WAYS OF ISLAM AND THE POPULATION GRADUALLY BECAME MOSLEM. DURING THIS PERIOD SOME THINGS WOULD HAVE BEEN MADE IN THE OLD WAYS AND WOULD HAVE STILL HAD A MARKET AMONG THE HINDU POPULATION. A MOSLEM WOULD BE PROHIBITED BY HIS FAITH FROM OWNING OR PRODUCING BANNED STYLES OF ART SO THE OLD STYLES WOULD HAVE FADED OUT AND THE NEWER ONES HAVE TAKEN THEIR PLACE.

JUST MY THOUGHTS FACT OR FICTION? I DON'T KNOW ENOUGH ABOUT THE HISTORY OF INDONESIA TO SAY BUT IT MIGHT OFFER AN EXPLANATION. WHEN DEALING WITH MANKIND AND HISTORY THERE ARE FEW ABSOLUTES PERHAPS ONLY BIRTH ,DEATH AND TAXES.

BSMStar · 27th June 2006, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Just to put this ukiran argument to bed here is a keris handle from Jawa .

Beating a dead horse...

Here are two hilts from Indonesia, the first is from northern Jawa (a Jinn with Naga attributes) and the second is from Madura (Semar).

I too have been confused by the presents of these in light of the cultural ban. They do not appear to be made for the Hindu market, just my opinion.

Mark · 27th June 2006, 06:27 PM

It would not be the first time that the ban was "bent." There are numerous examples of Islamic art depicting human and animal figures - I found a couple here: http://www.lacma.org/islamic_art/lia.htm.

Was this a total ban on depicting the human form, or was it specific in some way? I remember seeing painting that contained the figure of the Prophet Mohammed, but with his face completely hidden by a veil, which I think was how the ban was complied with in that case. How strictly it was enforced might have just depended on who was in charge at the time.

micas · 27th June 2006, 06:45 PM

Here's an article on the subject.

http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;...lam&sbid=lc03b

nechesh · 27th June 2006, 08:33 PM

Thank you Micas for that exellent article. As i stated, not so cut and dry as some might think.

I believe you will even see hadith enforced differently in different areas of Indonesia. Certainly it doesn't apply in Bali, but other areas are more strict and i believe it would be much harder to find an unabstracted human form on, say, a keris from Sulawesi.
Those are interesting examples that you show Wayne. The second one i think is a fairly recent example of a wayang figure and i have frequently seen whole collections of these characters in hilt form on ebay. I am not sure if they are being carved in Jawa or Madura (or perhaps elsewhere), but they are clearly being made for Javanese or Madurese keris, not Balinese ones. They are still carving these today AFAIK.
The horse and the winged horse (not to beat a dead horse, mind you

) is a common motif in Madura and i have one that is probably mid 20th C, so it seems obvious that these laws are not enforced in these areas in the modern age.

Tim Simmons · 27th June 2006, 09:01 PM

Human figures appear on many Persian carpets in the times before the 20th century, they always seem to be on the very best. Money talks

.

Mick · 28th June 2006, 07:42 PM

Actually Sulawesi has a beautiful form of Bima in gold as one of thier Keris Handles.

27th June 2006, 04:15 PM	#1
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,376	Sigh Just to put this ukiran argument to bed here is a keris handle from Jawa . From Tammens Attached Images

27th June 2006, 05:18 PM	#2
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	BEATING A DEAD HORSE ICON WE HAVE NEEDED ONE OF THOSE FOR A WHILE WHILE ALL THAT HAS BEEN SAID SO FAR IS TRUE AS TO TYPES OF KERIS HULU CARVINGS. I WOULD PUT FORWARD THE IDEA THAT WHEN THE MOSLEMS TOOK OVER IN JAVA PERHAPS THE LEADERS WERE UNDERSTANDING AND DIDN'T RULE WITH A IRON FIST AND ALOWED THOSE WHO WISHED TO REMAIN HINDU TO LIVE AND DO SO AFTER ALL THEY ALLOW BALI TO REMAIN HINDU. THAT WAY THE CHANGE WOULD HAVE TAKEN PLACE SLOWER AS THE CHILDREN AND YOUNG WERE EDUCATED IN THE WAYS OF ISLAM AND THE POPULATION GRADUALLY BECAME MOSLEM. DURING THIS PERIOD SOME THINGS WOULD HAVE BEEN MADE IN THE OLD WAYS AND WOULD HAVE STILL HAD A MARKET AMONG THE HINDU POPULATION. A MOSLEM WOULD BE PROHIBITED BY HIS FAITH FROM OWNING OR PRODUCING BANNED STYLES OF ART SO THE OLD STYLES WOULD HAVE FADED OUT AND THE NEWER ONES HAVE TAKEN THEIR PLACE. JUST MY THOUGHTS FACT OR FICTION? I DON'T KNOW ENOUGH ABOUT THE HISTORY OF INDONESIA TO SAY BUT IT MIGHT OFFER AN EXPLANATION. WHEN DEALING WITH MANKIND AND HISTORY THERE ARE FEW ABSOLUTES PERHAPS ONLY BIRTH ,DEATH AND TAXES.

27th June 2006, 06:27 PM	#4
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	It would not be the first time that the ban was "bent." There are numerous examples of Islamic art depicting human and animal figures - I found a couple here: http://www.lacma.org/islamic_art/lia.htm. Was this a total ban on depicting the human form, or was it specific in some way? I remember seeing painting that contained the figure of the Prophet Mohammed, but with his face completely hidden by a veil, which I think was how the ban was complied with in that case. How strictly it was enforced might have just depended on who was in charge at the time.

27th June 2006, 06:45 PM	#5
micas Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 30	Here's an article on the subject. http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;...lam&sbid=lc03b

27th June 2006, 08:33 PM	#6
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Thank you Micas for that exellent article. As i stated, not so cut and dry as some might think. I believe you will even see hadith enforced differently in different areas of Indonesia. Certainly it doesn't apply in Bali, but other areas are more strict and i believe it would be much harder to find an unabstracted human form on, say, a keris from Sulawesi. Those are interesting examples that you show Wayne. The second one i think is a fairly recent example of a wayang figure and i have frequently seen whole collections of these characters in hilt form on ebay. I am not sure if they are being carved in Jawa or Madura (or perhaps elsewhere), but they are clearly being made for Javanese or Madurese keris, not Balinese ones. They are still carving these today AFAIK. The horse and the winged horse (not to beat a dead horse, mind you ) is a common motif in Madura and i have one that is probably mid 20th C, so it seems obvious that these laws are not enforced in these areas in the modern age.

27th June 2006, 09:01 PM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,925	Human figures appear on many Persian carpets in the times before the 20th century, they always seem to be on the very best. Money talks .

28th June 2006, 07:42 PM	#8
Mick Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Orlando Posts: 104	Actually Sulawesi has a beautiful form of Bima in gold as one of thier Keris Handles.