Moro punal bronze guard?

RobT · 6th May 2023, 05:10 AM

Rick
Although a blade not fully seated in the hilt is shown in a catalogue, I don’t think we should accept that as an indicator of typical or correct practice. There have been many posts on this forum noting the lamentable errors of museum “experts”. This could be just another example.

Ian,
According to the Evapo-rust label, their product is non-toxic, ph neutral, and the spent solution can be safely flushed down the drain. This doesn’t sound like muriatic acid in any significant concentration to me. I am convinced that, if used as I described, Evapo-rust is the most effective and non-problematic rust removal strategy currently available. I am not a great fan of sandpaper because (in the grits you recommend) it is hard enough to remove steel to create a level surface (trust me, as an amateur woodworker I know this). I much prefer the 3M abrasive pads which aren’t hard enough to remove steel surface but are sharp enough to round over pitting and remove rust. Nital solutions in 2% and 3% are non-explosive and thus can be bought online and shipped vial mail. These weak solutions are also far less dangerous to the user and can be more easily controlled when applied. I have used both ferric chloride and 2-3% nital and much prefer nital because it doesn’t stain the blade brown and because I have found that ferric chloride is much harder to “kill” even with large amounts of water and baking soda. I agree with you that separating epoxied components without damage is well nigh impossible and indicated such in my post but Interested Party seemed to feel that he had a way to do it so I encouraged him to do so and to let us know how he did it (because I certainly don’t know).

Interested Party,
I am sure that you could use stock removal to create a serpentine center ridge but could you do it with the equipment likely available to the person who fashioned your gunong? Even if the blade were made in the 20th century, that level of tool kit would most likely be beyond the means of the typical Philippine smith. And, even in the unlikely event the maker had the required equipment, could he use stock removal to profitably make serpentine blades? I think the most plausible scenario is that your blade was fashioned around a mandril in the traditional manner.
There Is one issue that I didn’t mention before because you said that you have seen examples. The guard on your hilt isn’t as wide as the base of the blade. In my modest collection of 25 gunong, every guard is noticeably wider than the base of the blade. The general consensus is that the gunong was initially intended a weapon of last resort worn hidden inside the blouse. As such, the base of the blade, if unprotected by the guard could potentially be rather uncomfortable against bare skin. I wonder if your blade couldn’t be fully seated because the hilt/ferrule/guard isn’t original to the blade.

Sincerely,
RobT

Ian · 6th May 2023, 02:16 PM

Hi Rob,

I can only speak from my experience. Hydrochloric or phosphoric acid has been in every effective rust remover I've encountered previously. I don't know what would be in Evapo-rust that would otherwise dissolve the oxidized iron. I can't get it in Australia so I have not had a chance to try it.

With regard to sandpaper, it works well enough for me. If I want a cleaner job, I use a friend's blasting cabinet with peanut shells or a little Black Beauty for an abrasive.

As far as purchasing Nital, I tried hard to get some when living in the U.S. about ten years ago. Must have called a dozen suppliers and they all told me the same thing. I had to be a metallurgist, an engineer, or a chemist to get any sent to me. I eventually persuaded a chemist friend at the University where I worked to get some for me. The highest strength that would be sent by post was 2%, because it was considered unstable and an explosive hazard at 5% and above. It's also a strong acid, classified as a hazardous material, which is another red flag for postal and parcel services. Since commercial amounts of Nital were in 2%, 5%, or possibly 10% concentrations, the strongest they were allowed to send via post or parcel was 2%.

Ian · 6th May 2023, 02:27 PM

Hi Rob,

Just looked up the Material Safety Data Sheet for Evapo-rust. It's got 10–20% phosphoric acid in it. Pretty heavy duty acid that will etch steel.

.

Interested Party · 6th May 2023, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobT

Rick
1. Although a blade not fully seated in the hilt is shown in a catalogue, I don’t think we should accept that as an indicator of typical or correct practice. There have been many posts on this forum noting the lamentable errors of museum “experts”. This could be just another example.
....There Is one issue that I didn’t mention before because you said that you have seen examples. The guard on your hilt isn’t as wide as the base of the blade. In my modest collection of 25 gunong, every guard is noticeably wider than the base of the blade. The general consensus is that the gunong was initially intended a weapon of last resort worn hidden inside the blouse. As such, the base of the blade, if unprotected by the guard could potentially be rather uncomfortable against bare skin. I wonder if your blade couldn’t be fully seated because the hilt/ferrule/guard isn’t original to the blade.

2. I agree with you that separating epoxied components without damage is well nigh impossible and indicated such in my post but Interested Party seemed to feel that he had a way to do it so I encouraged him to do so and to let us know how he did it (because I certainly don’t know).

3. Interested Party,
I am sure that you could use stock removal to create a serpentine center ridge but could you do it with the equipment likely available to the person who fashioned your gunong? Even if the blade were made in the 20th century, that level of tool kit would most likely be beyond the means of the typical Philippine smith. And, even in the unlikely event the maker had the required equipment, could he use stock removal to profitably make serpentine blades? I think the most plausible scenario is that your blade was fashioned around a mandril in the traditional manner.

Sincerely,
RobT

1. Rob I agree with you that this could indicate replacement and believed this when I purchased the item as implied in the original post " I originally thought it might be a fragment of a broken kris and it was cheap so I picked it up." It wasn't until I started researching this post that I found the form was trend, complete with its oddities and flaws. See pictures below all from the first thread I referenced earlier called "My Philipine Gunong Collection". The photos are from gunongs of Ferguson, Ferguson via Sajen, Spunjer, and Rafngard. I hope these members will not mind my use of their photos. The idea that this style might be original and old came to mind when I saw a much fancier example fitted similarly on a commercial site. I started combing the reference material I could find, and the forum archives. It made me wish, yet again, that we had access to the discussions from the beginning of the group. This isn't a complaint just a wish, that fuels a fear that the more modern version of this forum and it's collected information may be lost as well someday. The published example in Krieger Plate 13, ex. 7 may have the same overhang. It is hard to tell with the pixelization of the photo. Some examples have had this corner filed off. The overhang would not have been an issue when carried in a blouse as the sheath would cover the spur. On the flip side one's hand slipped slightly while thrusting it would be uncomfortable. I would find the shape of the guard an irritant against bare skin as well as it would not lay flat without a very thick scabbard. This is a universal feature of this pattern.

All that said if this is a replacement, and all the other examples like it, it leads to the question of what were the style original fittings of this knife and all the similar examples?

2. I think given the thinness of the examples blade and its continuous taper to a fine edge I would have trouble removing this blade without damaging the temper. For slightly looser blades of beefier construction, I will attempt to slowly heat the blade with a torch to around 250 F wrap the blade in leather pad while wearing a welding glove try to work the hopefully softened epoxy lose. After those experiments I could evaluate this blade. The responses here are not filling me with confidence

3. Rob, I am not arguing that this blade was probably made using a mandrel as it is laminated, and the mandrel would be the easiest method if one has access to a forge. BUT I created a serpentine blade free hand at 13 with a bench grinder and my grandfather's advice. With what I have seen done with an angle grinder on Youtube I have no doubts that a Philippine worker could easily accomplish this task. As an adult I could do it with a file. Would it be profitable for me? No. For a rural person who makes a $1-3 a day and can sell this product on Ebay for $100 usd? Yes, it would be highly profitable even if their cut was only $20-40 for five days labor. The question I wonder is could one make this curve with a fully hardened drawknife type of tool? Once again, I'm not arguing the point, but this is a good topic for us to consider when we evaluate purchases.

Thanks for giving me a chance to get these ideas out of my head and into a public space to debate their validity.
IP

RobT · 8th May 2023, 07:32 PM

Ian,
Thanks for the data sheet. I did a screen grab and it’s now part of my data base (the wide range of phosphoric acid percent is a bit odd though). I don’t know at what percent phosphoric acid is considered strongly corrosive and I don’t know how (or whether or not) the phosphoric acid is buffered in the Evapo-rust solution. I do know, however, that I have gotten Evapo-rust all over my hands a number of times while working with it and have suffered no discomfort or ill effects to my skin whatsoever. When I finished working with the product, I simply washed my hands with soap and water. Whatever the strength of Evapo-rust is, it takes about 24 hours to etch a blade and that etch can be easily polished out. By the way, If a blade is left suspended in the solution for 24 hours, absolutely all the red rust will be gone but Evapo-rust struggles with black rust and is minimally effective.

Interested Party,
You make an excellent point about the base of the blade being covered by the sheath and thus being unable to contact the skin. I did note however that, in the 13 examples you posted, only 2 appeared to have a guard shorter than the base of the blade. All the rest had guards that were either wider or at least equal to the base of the blade so perhaps your surmise of discomfort to the hand during use is correct. As for the guard being a possible irritant, I checked my older examples that appear to have been made with concealed carry in mind and found every guard to be rounded smooth on all edges.
I would be willing to bet the ranch that, for a skilled Philippine smith, shaping such an obviously fine blade as yours around a mandrel would be quicker than stock removal.
If I were trying to remove a blade with heat, I would try a heat gun rather than a torch. If that didn’t work, I would give up. If you decide to press ahead, good luck with whatever method you choose to use.

Sincerely,
RobT

Interested Party · 8th May 2023, 07:48 PM

Haha I put a heat gun on my hardware store list last night. Great minds think alike. It also will help the finishing of kydex sheaths and a lot of other projects.

Absolutely forging is faster if you don't have a powerful belt grinder and more efficient with the iron if you are having to mine it. I have watched villager friends make utility knives out of worn-out machetes with a saw, a file, and granite boulders. It takes a while.

I also find the blade's edge hanging over the guard is not an attractive look.

Thanks again for the input.

6th May 2023, 05:10 AM	#1
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 548	Additional Thoughts Rick Although a blade not fully seated in the hilt is shown in a catalogue, I don’t think we should accept that as an indicator of typical or correct practice. There have been many posts on this forum noting the lamentable errors of museum “experts”. This could be just another example. Ian, According to the Evapo-rust label, their product is non-toxic, ph neutral, and the spent solution can be safely flushed down the drain. This doesn’t sound like muriatic acid in any significant concentration to me. I am convinced that, if used as I described, Evapo-rust is the most effective and non-problematic rust removal strategy currently available. I am not a great fan of sandpaper because (in the grits you recommend) it is hard enough to remove steel to create a level surface (trust me, as an amateur woodworker I know this). I much prefer the 3M abrasive pads which aren’t hard enough to remove steel surface but are sharp enough to round over pitting and remove rust. Nital solutions in 2% and 3% are non-explosive and thus can be bought online and shipped vial mail. These weak solutions are also far less dangerous to the user and can be more easily controlled when applied. I have used both ferric chloride and 2-3% nital and much prefer nital because it doesn’t stain the blade brown and because I have found that ferric chloride is much harder to “kill” even with large amounts of water and baking soda. I agree with you that separating epoxied components without damage is well nigh impossible and indicated such in my post but Interested Party seemed to feel that he had a way to do it so I encouraged him to do so and to let us know how he did it (because I certainly don’t know). Interested Party, I am sure that you could use stock removal to create a serpentine center ridge but could you do it with the equipment likely available to the person who fashioned your gunong? Even if the blade were made in the 20th century, that level of tool kit would most likely be beyond the means of the typical Philippine smith. And, even in the unlikely event the maker had the required equipment, could he use stock removal to profitably make serpentine blades? I think the most plausible scenario is that your blade was fashioned around a mandril in the traditional manner. There Is one issue that I didn’t mention before because you said that you have seen examples. The guard on your hilt isn’t as wide as the base of the blade. In my modest collection of 25 gunong, every guard is noticeably wider than the base of the blade. The general consensus is that the gunong was initially intended a weapon of last resort worn hidden inside the blouse. As such, the base of the blade, if unprotected by the guard could potentially be rather uncomfortable against bare skin. I wonder if your blade couldn’t be fully seated because the hilt/ferrule/guard isn’t original to the blade. Sincerely, RobT

6th May 2023, 02:27 PM	#3
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,396	Hi Rob, Just looked up the Material Safety Data Sheet for Evapo-rust. It's got 10–20% phosphoric acid in it. Pretty heavy duty acid that will etch steel. . Attached Images

8th May 2023, 07:32 PM	#5
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 548	Additional Comments Ian, Thanks for the data sheet. I did a screen grab and it’s now part of my data base (the wide range of phosphoric acid percent is a bit odd though). I don’t know at what percent phosphoric acid is considered strongly corrosive and I don’t know how (or whether or not) the phosphoric acid is buffered in the Evapo-rust solution. I do know, however, that I have gotten Evapo-rust all over my hands a number of times while working with it and have suffered no discomfort or ill effects to my skin whatsoever. When I finished working with the product, I simply washed my hands with soap and water. Whatever the strength of Evapo-rust is, it takes about 24 hours to etch a blade and that etch can be easily polished out. By the way, If a blade is left suspended in the solution for 24 hours, absolutely all the red rust will be gone but Evapo-rust struggles with black rust and is minimally effective. Interested Party, You make an excellent point about the base of the blade being covered by the sheath and thus being unable to contact the skin. I did note however that, in the 13 examples you posted, only 2 appeared to have a guard shorter than the base of the blade. All the rest had guards that were either wider or at least equal to the base of the blade so perhaps your surmise of discomfort to the hand during use is correct. As for the guard being a possible irritant, I checked my older examples that appear to have been made with concealed carry in mind and found every guard to be rounded smooth on all edges. I would be willing to bet the ranch that, for a skilled Philippine smith, shaping such an obviously fine blade as yours around a mandrel would be quicker than stock removal. If I were trying to remove a blade with heat, I would try a heat gun rather than a torch. If that didn’t work, I would give up. If you decide to press ahead, good luck with whatever method you choose to use. Sincerely, RobT

6th May 2023, 02:16 PM	#2
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,396	Hi Rob, I can only speak from my experience. Hydrochloric or phosphoric acid has been in every effective rust remover I've encountered previously. I don't know what would be in Evapo-rust that would otherwise dissolve the oxidized iron. I can't get it in Australia so I have not had a chance to try it. With regard to sandpaper, it works well enough for me. If I want a cleaner job, I use a friend's blasting cabinet with peanut shells or a little Black Beauty for an abrasive. As far as purchasing Nital, I tried hard to get some when living in the U.S. about ten years ago. Must have called a dozen suppliers and they all told me the same thing. I had to be a metallurgist, an engineer, or a chemist to get any sent to me. I eventually persuaded a chemist friend at the University where I worked to get some for me. The highest strength that would be sent by post was 2%, because it was considered unstable and an explosive hazard at 5% and above. It's also a strong acid, classified as a hazardous material, which is another red flag for postal and parcel services. Since commercial amounts of Nital were in 2%, 5%, or possibly 10% concentrations, the strongest they were allowed to send via post or parcel was 2%.

8th May 2023, 07:48 PM	#6
Interested Party Member Join Date: Dec 2019 Location: Eastern Sierra Posts: 497	Haha I put a heat gun on my hardware store list last night. Great minds think alike. It also will help the finishing of kydex sheaths and a lot of other projects. Absolutely forging is faster if you don't have a powerful belt grinder and more efficient with the iron if you are having to mine it. I have watched villager friends make utility knives out of worn-out machetes with a saw, a file, and granite boulders. It takes a while. I also find the blade's edge hanging over the guard is not an attractive look. Thanks again for the input.