Comments, please on Turkish Knife, made from a file

ham · 25th June 2006, 06:30 PM

By reading and rereading Homer's Iliad over a period of years, a German entrepreneur named Heinrich Schliemann found and excavated the ruins of Troy at Hissarlik in the latter 19th century. Both self-educated and self-financed, he performed a genuinely remarkable archeological feat-- yet in his eagerness, Schliemann dug right through Homeric Troy, to reveal several earlier levels of the ancient city.

When considering an artifact, it is wise not to proceed with an end result in mind-- let the piece reveal itself.

Considering the various elements of this dagger, it becomes clear that it is not a cohesive work. Rather, it is an agglomeration of alterations and additions. The fact that the blade is ground from a file is the least important matter in ascertaining its origin-- Britain exported good Birmingham files to Africa, the Middle East and all of Asia throughout the second half of the 19th century-- such items were traded and retraded to even farther geographical locations.
Consider: form of grips-- generally Ottoman, yes. The faceted bolsters are brass, the grips are wooden-- since both appear intrinsic to the piece they are the place where one ought to begin. This was a humble piece to begin with, though reasonably well constructed. Blade is also modest though well-ground, and of Ottoman, not North African, form.
All the rest is elaboration. The silver boss on the pommel is not Ottoman, rather it is Indian, probably Rajput as it is matrix-hammered. The wire wrap certainly is similar to work done by the Moros (Muslim Filipino indigenes-specialists kindly forgive the lack of specificity) but not necessarily exclusive to them. It can also be Arab.The sheath of wood has incised designs, typical of Algerian flyssa sheathes, yet the silver mounts are unusual in combination with it. They may well be Arab as has been observed above, but this again is not exclusive. Very similar work was produced in various parts of Indonesia. Is the sheath original to the dagger or is it a near fit which was associated with it? Finally, were these alterations made in the knife's working life or afterwards-- more recently? If the dagger and sheath and all the embellishments display a consistent patina, the dagger probably came from Anatolia and was then embellished and fitted with its silver-mounted sheath on the Arabian peninsula.

With a piece like this, it is much easier to ascertain what it is not, than what it is. By ruling out possibilities, we are left with likelihoods. Observation, followed by deductive reasoning, take us where direct assumptions cannot.

Ham

katana · 25th June 2006, 06:47 PM

Thankyou very much Ham, I certainly enjoyed your deductive reasoning .....like a certain character from the works of Conan Doyle

kronckew · 25th June 2006, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ham

By reading and rereading Homer's Iliad over a period of years, a German entrepreneur named Heinrich Schliemann found and excavated the ruins of Troy at Hissarlik in the latter 19th century. Both self-educated and self-financed, he performed a genuinely remarkable archeological feat-- yet in his eagerness, Schliemann dug right through Homeric Troy, to reveal several earlier levels of the ancient city.

When considering an artifact, it is wise not to proceed with an end result in mind-- let the piece reveal itself.

Considering the various elements of this dagger, it becomes clear that it is not a cohesive work. Rather, it is an agglomeration of alterations and additions. The fact that the blade is ground from a file is the least important matter in ascertaining its origin-- Britain exported good Birmingham files to Africa, the Middle East and all of Asia throughout the second half of the 19th century-- such items were traded and retraded to even farther geographical locations.
Consider: form of grips-- generally Ottoman, yes. The faceted bolsters are brass, the grips are wooden-- since both appear intrinsic to the piece they are the place where one ought to begin. This was a humble piece to begin with, though reasonably well constructed. Blade is also modest though well-ground, and of Ottoman, not North African, form.
All the rest is elaboration. The silver boss on the pommel is not Ottoman, rather it is Indian, probably Rajput as it is matrix-hammered. The wire wrap certainly is similar to work done by the Moros (Muslim Filipino indigenes-specialists kindly forgive the lack of specificity) but not necessarily exclusive to them. It can also be Arab.The sheath of wood has incised designs, typical of Algerian flyssa sheathes, yet the silver mounts are unusual in combination with it. They may well be Arab as has been observed above, but this again is not exclusive. Very similar work was produced in various parts of Indonesia. Is the sheath original to the dagger or is it a near fit which was associated with it? Finally, were these alterations made in the knife's working life or afterwards-- more recently? If the dagger and sheath and all the embellishments display a consistent patina, the dagger probably came from Anatolia and was then embellished and fitted with its silver-mounted sheath on the Arabian peninsula.

With a piece like this, it is much easier to ascertain what it is not, than what it is. By ruling out possibilities, we are left with likelihoods. Observation, followed by deductive reasoning, take us where direct assumptions cannot.

Ham

in other words, 'i don't know'

p.s. - still a purdy knife, even if you beat me out in the bidding.....

ham · 25th June 2006, 07:00 PM

If 'I don't know' is all you got from that, perhaps read it again.

Ham

kronckew · 25th June 2006, 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ham

If 'I don't know' is all you got from that, perhaps read it again.

Ham

there was an overwhelming amount of well presented information which was very informative, knowledgeable and germain, did not mean to sound facetious, but the ultimate conclusion is that the origins and history of the item are speculative and show the influences of a number of possible embellishments over it's life. we are left with likelyhoods, not certainties. it's still purdy.

t_c · 26th June 2006, 02:50 AM

The connection between the blade and the hilt reminds me of the bosnian knives often labeled as "Bosnian Fighting Knife" from the late 1800's - see Tirri page 168, fig 118 (top) - not the best pic though. Specifically the way the brass wraps the base of the edge. I'll try to post a pic - I'm an FNG so no promises this will work..... Anyways, my two cents is possibly Balkans or similar.

ham · 27th June 2006, 04:39 AM

The point is that despite what has been written in this field, the literature is still nascent. For this reason some items defy precise identification. Coin collectors, stamp collectors, military patch collectors, badge, pin and medals collectors, doll collectors, jar collectors, beanie baby collectors et bloody al-- have the benefit of being able to look up a given item in a book and put a finger right on it, done and done-- stick it in a lucite box with a neatly lettered label and put it on the shelf. But in the case of ethnographic weapons, it is up to serious students to write that book. Every single effort, including this forum, contributes a little knowledge. This is the challenge which makes it so compelling.

Ham

The Double D · 27th June 2006, 07:58 PM

Katana forgive me but I hijacked your picture and did some editing of it. The edits are now on my picture site and the bandwidth is mine.

My point in doing this is offer a less educated and less articulate point of view.

Why do you think this is a file knife?

Surely not from these marks?

If those were old file teeth they would taper and disappear from spine to cutting edge. They just appear to be tool or polishing marks to me.

Now these marks...

The heavy dark ones might be old teeth from some old crudely made rasp. The do appear to taper and fade...the cutting edge is on the right isn't it? But are we sure?

The cross hatching on the spine doesn't make it a file.

And if it is an old file, does that eliminate it's worthiness or does it point to a specific maker's technique and style who doesn't have access to a local steel supply house. Does it indicate a culture who lives where supply is limited and old tools are not discarded and replaced by a visit to Home Depot, but are instead used and reused however possible. Indeed a very worthy piece for any collection

My a less educated and less articulate point of view.

26th June 2006, 02:50 AM	#6
t_c Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: ca, usa Posts: 92	The connection between the blade and the hilt reminds me of the bosnian knives often labeled as "Bosnian Fighting Knife" from the late 1800's - see Tirri page 168, fig 118 (top) - not the best pic though. Specifically the way the brass wraps the base of the edge. I'll try to post a pic - I'm an FNG so no promises this will work..... Anyways, my two cents is possibly Balkans or similar. Attached Images

25th June 2006, 06:30 PM	#1
ham Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 190	By reading and rereading Homer's Iliad over a period of years, a German entrepreneur named Heinrich Schliemann found and excavated the ruins of Troy at Hissarlik in the latter 19th century. Both self-educated and self-financed, he performed a genuinely remarkable archeological feat-- yet in his eagerness, Schliemann dug right through Homeric Troy, to reveal several earlier levels of the ancient city. When considering an artifact, it is wise not to proceed with an end result in mind-- let the piece reveal itself. Considering the various elements of this dagger, it becomes clear that it is not a cohesive work. Rather, it is an agglomeration of alterations and additions. The fact that the blade is ground from a file is the least important matter in ascertaining its origin-- Britain exported good Birmingham files to Africa, the Middle East and all of Asia throughout the second half of the 19th century-- such items were traded and retraded to even farther geographical locations. Consider: form of grips-- generally Ottoman, yes. The faceted bolsters are brass, the grips are wooden-- since both appear intrinsic to the piece they are the place where one ought to begin. This was a humble piece to begin with, though reasonably well constructed. Blade is also modest though well-ground, and of Ottoman, not North African, form. All the rest is elaboration. The silver boss on the pommel is not Ottoman, rather it is Indian, probably Rajput as it is matrix-hammered. The wire wrap certainly is similar to work done by the Moros (Muslim Filipino indigenes-specialists kindly forgive the lack of specificity) but not necessarily exclusive to them. It can also be Arab.The sheath of wood has incised designs, typical of Algerian flyssa sheathes, yet the silver mounts are unusual in combination with it. They may well be Arab as has been observed above, but this again is not exclusive. Very similar work was produced in various parts of Indonesia. Is the sheath original to the dagger or is it a near fit which was associated with it? Finally, were these alterations made in the knife's working life or afterwards-- more recently? If the dagger and sheath and all the embellishments display a consistent patina, the dagger probably came from Anatolia and was then embellished and fitted with its silver-mounted sheath on the Arabian peninsula. With a piece like this, it is much easier to ascertain what it is not, than what it is. By ruling out possibilities, we are left with likelihoods. Observation, followed by deductive reasoning, take us where direct assumptions cannot. Ham

25th June 2006, 06:47 PM	#2
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Thankyou very much Ham, I certainly enjoyed your deductive reasoning .....like a certain character from the works of Conan Doyle

25th June 2006, 07:00 PM	#4
ham Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 190	If 'I don't know' is all you got from that, perhaps read it again. Ham

27th June 2006, 04:39 AM	#7
ham Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 190	The point is that despite what has been written in this field, the literature is still nascent. For this reason some items defy precise identification. Coin collectors, stamp collectors, military patch collectors, badge, pin and medals collectors, doll collectors, jar collectors, beanie baby collectors et bloody al-- have the benefit of being able to look up a given item in a book and put a finger right on it, done and done-- stick it in a lucite box with a neatly lettered label and put it on the shelf. But in the case of ethnographic weapons, it is up to serious students to write that book. Every single effort, including this forum, contributes a little knowledge. This is the challenge which makes it so compelling. Ham

27th June 2006, 07:58 PM	#8
The Double D Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: On the banks of Cut Bank Creek, Montana Posts: 189	Katana forgive me but I hijacked your picture and did some editing of it. The edits are now on my picture site and the bandwidth is mine. My point in doing this is offer a less educated and less articulate point of view. Why do you think this is a file knife? Surely not from these marks? If those were old file teeth they would taper and disappear from spine to cutting edge. They just appear to be tool or polishing marks to me. Now these marks... The heavy dark ones might be old teeth from some old crudely made rasp. The do appear to taper and fade...the cutting edge is on the right isn't it? But are we sure? The cross hatching on the spine doesn't make it a file. And if it is an old file, does that eliminate it's worthiness or does it point to a specific maker's technique and style who doesn't have access to a local steel supply house. Does it indicate a culture who lives where supply is limited and old tools are not discarded and replaced by a visit to Home Depot, but are instead used and reused however possible. Indeed a very worthy piece for any collection My a less educated and less articulate point of view.