Strange Mendak on Yogyakarta Keris

Athanase · 28th March 2023, 10:14 PM

Hello,

I am digging up this old thread because while leafing through the catalog of the Charle Buttin collection I realized that the Keris of this thread is perhaps the n°858 of the Charle Buttin collection.
The dapur and the lengh of the blade (37cm) is the same and the very strange mendak/selut seems to be identical.

What do you think ?

milandro · 29th March 2023, 11:20 AM

it certainly looks like that and I can't help to feel that replacing the selut, mendak might have been hasty

kai · 29th March 2023, 02:49 PM

No, this just proves that the mistake was done a bit earlier...

I assume that Séverin kept the old selut with this keris for future reference and, thus, preserving the history. Still, the current mendak is culturally way more appropriate.

Regards,
Kai

kai · 29th March 2023, 02:58 PM

Hello Séverin,

Quote:

the Keris of this thread is perhaps the n°858 of the Charle Buttin collection.

Good catch! The resolution of the catalog pic is not that great and the puyohan seems to be not clearly visible; also the kembang kacang might be sitting at a steeper angle (easily affected by photographic angles though).

However, the overall similarity and the selut seem to be pretty convincing. Things do get around...

Regards,
Kai

milandro · 29th March 2023, 04:13 PM

I am sure that, based on the majority rule, the latter mendak is more culturally appropriate... BUT the first selut may have been coming down to us, through time, since it was dressed for the first time, possibly unaltered, and YET we would be changing it to fit criteria that may or may nor have been shared by the first person dressing that kris.

Sometimes I feel that people who came after the events or the artefacts tend to be way more orthodox than the people who were there at the time that things happened or were made.

Athanase · 29th March 2023, 10:36 PM

It seems to me that I have kept old Selut in a corner.

I'm not sure that the Selut was Indonesian.
It may be a European creation that awkwardly imitates the Indonesian Seluts to replace the missing mendak.

David · 29th March 2023, 11:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Athanase

It seems to me that I have kept old Selut in a corner.

I'm not sure that the Selut was Indonesian.
It may be a European creation that awkwardly imitates the Indonesian Seluts to replace the missing mendak.

Well, as i look back on this thread it seems that i was one of the first to suggest that this selut was possibly from outside the cultural, but i have to say that i am not quite as certain now. I don't know if this thread predates when this patrem came into my collection, but my understanding is that this particular keris came straight out of the culture, so it would not have been affected by European or other outside influences. While is mendak/selut (not really sure what to call it) is not quite the same as the one on your keris it does seem to be in the same "family" in a way. You should at least be able to see way your keris put me in mind of it.
Of course my understanding of the patrem (though i am not really sure about this) is that they don't necessary have to meet the same standards as a regular keris does in regards to dress and form. But i believe this example might perhaps at least put a foot in the door for the argument that your selut may have originated in Jawa.
That said i still believe that the more standard mendak you have replaced it with is a better fit for your keris.

28th March 2023, 10:14 PM	#1
Athanase Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: Paris (France) Posts: 420	Hello, I am digging up this old thread because while leafing through the catalog of the Charle Buttin collection I realized that the Keris of this thread is perhaps the n°858 of the Charle Buttin collection. The dapur and the lengh of the blade (37cm) is the same and the very strange mendak/selut seems to be identical. What do you think ? Attached Images

29th March 2023, 11:20 AM	#2
milandro Member Join Date: Jan 2022 Location: Netherlands Posts: 492	it certainly looks like that and I can't help to feel that replacing the selut, mendak might have been hasty

29th March 2023, 02:49 PM	#3
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	No, this just proves that the mistake was done a bit earlier... I assume that Séverin kept the old selut with this keris for future reference and, thus, preserving the history. Still, the current mendak is culturally way more appropriate. Regards, Kai

29th March 2023, 04:13 PM	#5
milandro Member Join Date: Jan 2022 Location: Netherlands Posts: 492	I am sure that, based on the majority rule, the latter mendak is more culturally appropriate... BUT the first selut may have been coming down to us, through time, since it was dressed for the first time, possibly unaltered, and YET we would be changing it to fit criteria that may or may nor have been shared by the first person dressing that kris. Sometimes I feel that people who came after the events or the artefacts tend to be way more orthodox than the people who were there at the time that things happened or were made.

29th March 2023, 10:36 PM	#6
Athanase Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: Paris (France) Posts: 420	It seems to me that I have kept old Selut in a corner. I'm not sure that the Selut was Indonesian. It may be a European creation that awkwardly imitates the Indonesian Seluts to replace the missing mendak.