Looking for information on Andres Martinez of Toledo

[10thRoyal]

I'm very relieved to hear that FINALLY I have found something that is not entirely a Victorian reproduction. I was on the verge of giving up honestly. As for the inscription, I'm hoping it looks a little less janky after some time with a tooth brush but clearly a calligrapher Andres was not.

Something interesting I noticed from the armory catalogue I posted earlier, the mark on my sword seems to have been made with the same stamp as the example that was found in the armory. As in the exact same physical punch was used to make both markings. Not sure if that is actually interesting or not.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by 10thRoyal

I'm very relieved to hear that FINALLY I have found something that is not entirely a Victorian reproduction. I was on the verge of giving up honestly. As for the inscription, I'm hoping it looks a little less janky after some time with a tooth brush but clearly a calligrapher Andres was not.

Something interesting I noticed from the armory catalogue I posted earlier, the mark on my sword seems to have been made with the same stamp as the example that was found in the armory. As in the exact same physical punch was used to make both markings. Not sure if that is actually interesting or not.

As Fernando has noted, it was not unusual to have this 'Latin' esque type of inscription on actual Toledo blades. There were a number of Solingen makers who actually worked in Toledo at times, such Henry Koll (Enrique Coel).
He has shown important detail on this maker from the remarkable resources that he has access to, so that seems well established.

I would point out that this punzone with the T is correctly placed as per authentic Spanish swords of 17th c. and Victorian replicas never had makers detail on them as they were not produced with deception in mind.
That mark with the hump over the T is interesting as it is unique, and it seems to this family. The T with other embellishment seems more often copied on other blades known produced in Solingen, often with incongruent Spanish makers names and marks.
Therefore, as agreed, yours has all appearance of the real deal, at least as far as the blade.

It is possible that the hilt was a later addition, and while replicas did occasionally use 'real' vintage blades, this was a common occurrence on authentically used rapiers as well. These were often repaired or rehilted in accord with changes in fashion or preference of owner through working lives, and to find an example not 'composite' is quite remarkable.

[fernando]

Meanwhile i have sent e-mail to two surces in Spain, to see whether they can untangle this Martinez knot ... but i am not sure if they ever answer .

[10thRoyal]

Originally Posted by fernando

Meanwhile i have sent e-mail to two surces in Spain, to see whether they can untangle this Martinez knot ... but i am not sure if they ever answer .

Fernando I cannot thank you enough! I have struggled to find any other mentions Andres Martinez or examples of his work so your help is immensely appreciated.

[10thRoyal]

I finally the sword in hand and am amazed at the balance of it and just how massive the guard is compared to the blade. I've attached better photos of the inscription for anyone who comes across an Andres Martinez blade in the future along with the anchor mark on the blade that was not previously shown.

[10thRoyal]

Originally Posted by fernando

Meanwhile i have sent e-mail to two surces in Spain, to see whether they can untangle this Martinez knot ... but i am not sure if they ever answer .

Good afternoon Fernando, did you ever hear back from those sources in Spain?

[fernando]

Nothing useful, i am afraid. One of them said that my reasoning on the fathers/sons sounded plausible but he was sorry not to be able to provide any further information.The other one, whom i had more expectations from, has never answered my email.
Sorry .

[urbanspaceman]

A fine blade is a valuable commodity, it is a product of those esoteric practices not common throughout a lot of history.
Fashioning a hilt was rarely fraught with difficulty, and consequently could be discarded and replaced at the whim of fashion and circumstance - as Jim said. This speaks volumes about trends in history.
I have two extremely fine rapier blades that have been converted to court-swords with very fancy hilts; for me, they are nearly as precious as my 1590s swept hilt, although nowhere-near as valuable on the commercial market.
It is all too easy to be caught up in the pedantic attitudes of some collectors.
The Arms and Armour Society presented a lecture this month on 'collectors and collecting' that was both poignant, amusing and precautionary, in that: "de gustibus non est disbutandum".
You should see the faces of coin collectors when they discover I clean my antique coins!
Fine Samurai swords are revered, and their condition is sacrosanct; why should the West be any different?
For me, a luxurious sword should reflect as much as possible of the quality and craftsmanship displayed when new. Munition's-grade battlefield swords are a different issue altogether though and are usually more inspiring when showing the patina of age and activity.
OK, I'm off my soap-box now.
ps
All this aside, your monster hilt looks amazing, regardless of its provenance.

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you Keith!

Always interested in Spanish swords, I could not resist tearing into very old files, and while not directly answering the questions in the OP (orig post) I found this material possibly salient in context.

from : "Proceedings of the Society of Antiquaries, June 21,1900"
Vol XVIII, pp.206-215, by Baron Charles A. DeCosson.

DeCosson was one of the luminaries of early 20th century arms & armor study.

Discussing a sword with mock Arabic inscription and arms and badges of the Catholic Kings, with the inscription in the grooves,
PEDRO GARETA ME FECIT
"...when Count Valencia de Don Juan , our honorary fellow and director of the Madrid Armoury, examined this sword with me, he expressed the opinion that this blade was not of Toledan make and thought it might be German. It certainly has not the peculiar character of true Toledo blades, which to those well acquainted with them is unmistakeable. Besides which the name on it is not correctly spelt.
Rodriguez del Canto, fencing master of Madrid, in an unedited manuscript written in 1734, and entitled 'El Discipulo Instruido' gives a list of all the most celebrated blade smiths of Toledo with their marks. His list differs somewhat from that of Palomares so well known through having been printed in the catalog of the Armeria Real in 1849.
In R.del Cantos list we find a pedro de Garatea, who is no doubt the same master who is called Pedro de Lagaratea by Palomares. No blade signed in either of these ways is at present known. But his blades must have been famous to be imitated with the incorrect for Gareta.

From a careful examination of this blade and the similar one in my own sword, I think it is probable that they are both Italian, as are many professing to be of Toledan manufacture, notably all those inscribed Monte en Toledo which are imitations of those made by the Toledan master Belmonte or Velmonte. "


In an article by Abraham Lopez, "Alonso Perez, Sword Maker of Toledo'
it notes that Perez was one of the most prestigious artisans of late 16th c and worked as an officer in Toledo at shop of famed master Gil de Almau.

An important rapier was found on the well known shipwreck of the Nuestra Senora de Atocha (1622) off Florida. It was of course heavily encrusted but it was determined to be of Italian style, but with Toledo blade as commonly seen in Spain.

Attached is page showing the 'anchor' mark apparently associated with Perez and as seen on the blade of the sword here in OP.