Late 17thC Scottish Broadsword.

M ELEY · 4th March 2023, 03:58 AM

Thanks, Jim for posting that pic of the basket with the wrist guard. I hadn't thought about the fact that these were also added to earlier baskets, so Norman's might be pre-1700 with a later wrist guard added. If only this sword could talk, eh!?

Keith, that is an incredible Houndslow iron-hilt you have! I've wanted one of these for many years now and hope to someday acquire one! They were popular among the sailors of that time period and would help me round out my collection. Thanks for posting it-

Jim McDougall · 4th March 2023, 08:07 AM

This is the Hounslow cutlass I have, and the running wolf, while in latten, as is Keiths, as often seen in some Solingen blades, its configuration seems contrary to those of Solingen.It also stands alone, without date, numbers etc.

In " Arms and Armor in Tudor & Stuart London", M. Holmes, 1957, p.30, "...as has been said, Hounslow swords are generally single edged cavalry weapons for cut and thrust work, or curved cutlasses for use at sea. The backs of these latter are often serrated'
* a footnote from another reference from 1686 has mention of sawing with a backsword by a shipmaster, indicating these were still in use by this date. This example is likely of the late 1630s in line with the number of other examples aligned with this.

On p.33, it is noted, "...a cutlass with a serrated back dated 1634 marked with the fox, a symbol occasionally found on Hounslow work".

It has often been suggested that the German makers of Hounslow and later Shotley took to using the running wolf in a sense to spite their former allegiance to the Solingen guilds. I think that is on the contrary, and that the convention of the wolf image remained a talismanic imbuement from the earlier days of the famed 'Passau wolf' where such markings were indeed intended in this manner, and were deemed among other amuletic devices known as 'Passau art'. This was of course picked up by Solingen where in addition to the image suggested quality in addition to its more occult placement prior in Passau.

This practice was surely adopted later elsewhere, such as Shotley Bridge where it is believed the wolf became a bushy tail fox, which carried into later Birmingham manufacture with Samuel Harvey well into the 18th c.

urbanspaceman · 4th March 2023, 10:41 AM

Johannes Wundes appears to have been the principle user of this particular rendering of the Passau Wolf.
He put this image on blades he supplied to Passau merchants who were selling to Passau mercenaries of Arch-Duke Leopold V. (see image)
The Munsten family also used this same style of wolf, so these blades may have come from Solingen or might have been made by Peter Munsten (the younger) while working at Hounslow.
Olligh, of Shotley Bridge fame, did not use the Passau Wolf as has been assumed on many occasions. Those blades marked SHOTLE(Y) BRIDG(E) with a Passau Wolf were smuggled-in by Hermann Mohll at the start of the enterprise. Once Olligh attained independence he went back to using the Bushy Tailed Fox.
It is probably impossible to determine where blades came from purely by the presence of the wolf.
However, I think Norman's sword-blade came with the wolf and the date was added when it was re-hilted. The presence of the wolf is what made the blade desirable and worthy of a re-hilting.

urbanspaceman · 4th March 2023, 10:50 AM

Just as an afterthought pertinent to my last post rather than the subject of the thread - as Jim mentioned it:
The Bushy Tailed Fox was the 'Oley of Shotley Bridge' mark and he also put it on blades he was selling to Birmingham smiths such as the Samuel Harvey dynasty who would subsequently add their initials or names to ensure they were paid by The Tower, as back then the BTF was always associated with Oley... and hopefully now - remains so; just wanted to set the record straight at last.

Norman McCormick · 4th March 2023, 02:40 PM

Hi Guys,
Thanks for the ongoing interest and of course the info shared. Also the kind words re the restoration. It has been an interesting journey. On another note, is there a consensus as to the probable source and time frame for the blade and also one for the hilt?
My Regards,
Norman.

M ELEY · 9th March 2023, 08:49 AM

Sorry I missed your question, Norman. The basket itself seems like it fits into the 1690's-1840 period. This seems a little broad, but the pattern didn't change much in this era. The larger saltires, the way the hilt bars enter the pommel and the punched hearts and merlons all indicate pre-1750. The wrist guard, if not added later, would push the date to post-1700. The thin bars are more of the style of the Sterling smiths (as opposed to the 'flat noodle bars of the Glasgow smiths). The blade could easily be as marked, late 1600's. This was not uncommon to see older blades with 'newer' baskets. Do you remember my sword with the ca. 1730's basket, but 1690's blade by Peter Wundes the Younger? These German blades were imported into the UK where local smiths forged the hilts.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=25466

Norman McCormick · 10th March 2023, 01:41 PM

Hi Mark,
Thanks once again for your input. I do remember your Wundes blade a fine sword and a great find.
My Regards,
Norman.

4th March 2023, 08:07 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	This is the Hounslow cutlass I have, and the running wolf, while in latten, as is Keiths, as often seen in some Solingen blades, its configuration seems contrary to those of Solingen.It also stands alone, without date, numbers etc. In " Arms and Armor in Tudor & Stuart London", M. Holmes, 1957, p.30, "...as has been said, Hounslow swords are generally single edged cavalry weapons for cut and thrust work, or curved cutlasses for use at sea. The backs of these latter are often serrated' * a footnote from another reference from 1686 has mention of sawing with a backsword by a shipmaster, indicating these were still in use by this date. This example is likely of the late 1630s in line with the number of other examples aligned with this. On p.33, it is noted, "...a cutlass with a serrated back dated 1634 marked with the fox, a symbol occasionally found on Hounslow work". It has often been suggested that the German makers of Hounslow and later Shotley took to using the running wolf in a sense to spite their former allegiance to the Solingen guilds. I think that is on the contrary, and that the convention of the wolf image remained a talismanic imbuement from the earlier days of the famed 'Passau wolf' where such markings were indeed intended in this manner, and were deemed among other amuletic devices known as 'Passau art'. This was of course picked up by Solingen where in addition to the image suggested quality in addition to its more occult placement prior in Passau. This practice was surely adopted later elsewhere, such as Shotley Bridge where it is believed the wolf became a bushy tail fox, which carried into later Birmingham manufacture with Samuel Harvey well into the 18th c. Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 4th March 2023 at 08:25 AM.

4th March 2023, 10:41 AM	#3
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 620	Passau Wolf Johannes Wundes appears to have been the principle user of this particular rendering of the Passau Wolf. He put this image on blades he supplied to Passau merchants who were selling to Passau mercenaries of Arch-Duke Leopold V. (see image) The Munsten family also used this same style of wolf, so these blades may have come from Solingen or might have been made by Peter Munsten (the younger) while working at Hounslow. Olligh, of Shotley Bridge fame, did not use the Passau Wolf as has been assumed on many occasions. Those blades marked SHOTLE(Y) BRIDG(E) with a Passau Wolf were smuggled-in by Hermann Mohll at the start of the enterprise. Once Olligh attained independence he went back to using the Bushy Tailed Fox. It is probably impossible to determine where blades came from purely by the presence of the wolf. However, I think Norman's sword-blade came with the wolf and the date was added when it was re-hilted. The presence of the wolf is what made the blade desirable and worthy of a re-hilting. Attached Images Last edited by urbanspaceman; 4th March 2023 at 10:52 AM. Reason: correcting an ambiguity

4th March 2023, 10:50 AM	#4
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 620	PS Just as an afterthought pertinent to my last post rather than the subject of the thread - as Jim mentioned it: The Bushy Tailed Fox was the 'Oley of Shotley Bridge' mark and he also put it on blades he was selling to Birmingham smiths such as the Samuel Harvey dynasty who would subsequently add their initials or names to ensure they were paid by The Tower, as back then the BTF was always associated with Oley... and hopefully now - remains so; just wanted to set the record straight at last. Last edited by urbanspaceman; 4th March 2023 at 10:55 AM. Reason: punctuation

4th March 2023, 03:58 AM	#1
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,158	Thanks, Jim for posting that pic of the basket with the wrist guard. I hadn't thought about the fact that these were also added to earlier baskets, so Norman's might be pre-1700 with a later wrist guard added. If only this sword could talk, eh!? Keith, that is an incredible Houndslow iron-hilt you have! I've wanted one of these for many years now and hope to someday acquire one! They were popular among the sailors of that time period and would help me round out my collection. Thanks for posting it-

4th March 2023, 02:40 PM	#5
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,618	Hi Guys, Thanks for the ongoing interest and of course the info shared. Also the kind words re the restoration. It has been an interesting journey. On another note, is there a consensus as to the probable source and time frame for the blade and also one for the hilt? My Regards, Norman.

9th March 2023, 08:49 AM	#6
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,158	Sorry I missed your question, Norman. The basket itself seems like it fits into the 1690's-1840 period. This seems a little broad, but the pattern didn't change much in this era. The larger saltires, the way the hilt bars enter the pommel and the punched hearts and merlons all indicate pre-1750. The wrist guard, if not added later, would push the date to post-1700. The thin bars are more of the style of the Sterling smiths (as opposed to the 'flat noodle bars of the Glasgow smiths). The blade could easily be as marked, late 1600's. This was not uncommon to see older blades with 'newer' baskets. Do you remember my sword with the ca. 1730's basket, but 1690's blade by Peter Wundes the Younger? These German blades were imported into the UK where local smiths forged the hilts. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=25466

10th March 2023, 01:41 PM	#7
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,618	Hi Mark, Thanks once again for your input. I do remember your Wundes blade a fine sword and a great find. My Regards, Norman.