Identification of an indonesian dagger

A. G. Maisey · 24th June 2006, 01:48 AM

In Jawa I have never seen them mounted as spearheads. They are usually mounted in dress that is reminiscent of a command baton. I have seen one in very old dress that was mounted as a keris.I do not believe they have ever been mounted as a tombak in Jawa.

I do not think there is any Indian connection with the Javanese pieces. They have always reminded me of an old European bayonet pattern, and this may have been their origin, but I have not seen or owned any that were of European manufacture. All I have handled have been of Indonesian manufacture.

Would it be possible for you to provide clear close-ups of the metal scabbard cover. Do you know if this is silver, silver plate, or an alloy, such as mamas?

nechesh · 24th June 2006, 05:38 AM

Hey Alan, do you have any idea as to the purpose of these blades. Was it meant as a functional weapon or was it more ceremonial ritualistic. I suppose that on the practical side that triangular blade would leave a pretty nasty hole.

But is also reminds me of a phurpa which is strictly a ritual weapon.

Henk · 24th June 2006, 08:41 AM

Alan,

Thanks for your clear explanation. The blade has that triangular European bayonet pattern. As I wrote before it was my first thought. It is very likely that this is the origin indeed.

I made some pictures of the scabbard. I hope it will do.
I don't think it is pure silver used for the scabbard. It has a copper smell, so i supose it is silver plated or an alloy.

The question of Nechesh is a nice one too. Being dressed as a command baton it would be purely ceremonial, but if i look at the blade it isn't so ceremonial at all and will leave a nasty problem for the guy who's standing at the wrong side of it.

A. G. Maisey · 24th June 2006, 10:17 AM

Thank you Henk.
I was hoping I would recognise embossing of one of the types I am familiar with, but I do not.
However, the construction of the pendok does look very Balinese; I am looking at the way the back panel of the pendok is folded up over the sides of the front panel.
Silver is very easy to test. You buy a bottle of silver test from a jeweller`s supplier. It is very cheap and lasts for years.

David, this is just one blade style amongst many. It is clearly a weapon, and was undoubtedly used as such.
Purpose?
Termination of human life.

The baton style dress is more recent, just as tombak have been dressed as daggers for the last 100 years or so. Even the one I saw dressed as a keris, although the dress was old, was probably only 100 or so years old. It would not have gone back to, say, 1750-1850.

Realistically, looking at Henk`s example it is probably a second half of the 20th century scabbard, the ivory somewhat older, and the blade much older. Who knows how many times the dress may have been changed or different styles used?

Henk · 24th June 2006, 03:23 PM

Alan,

Thanks for your lesson. Although we have a lot of malay weaponry here in Holland, this one was new for me and i have never seen one before.

Thanks for your help, Alan.

Henk

doecon · 1st July 2006, 09:34 PM

Henk,

I think you have found yourself a modified european small sword in indonesian dress. The blade style is clearly not indonesian, but probably north european made (imported by the dutch?). It is probably cut (halfway) and resharpened.

The dress is indeed a recent creation, as you can see from the wood (at the beginning of the scabbard) and the metalworks (silver?)

There are plenty old european blades being modified in Indonesia, even in more recent times (1900's), your blade looks indeed a bit older. Try cleaning the blade propperly, maybe you still find more makers marks (Solingen?). My guess is its a mid to late 18th small sword.

Rick · 1st July 2006, 10:03 PM

A Euro pamor blade ?

New to me .

nechesh · 1st July 2006, 10:48 PM

There is little question that the sheath is recent work, though the hilt obviously has some age to it, but it clearly looks like Indonesian work to me. I have never seen a European blade with this type of pamor work.....and why would Mr. Maisey, a man with half a century (sorry Alan, not trying to make you feel old

) of experience and exposure to Indonesian weaponry so clearly identify this weapon by name(s) if he wasn't familar with it? It is obviously something he is familiar with.

24th June 2006, 08:41 AM	#3
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Alan, Thanks for your clear explanation. The blade has that triangular European bayonet pattern. As I wrote before it was my first thought. It is very likely that this is the origin indeed. I made some pictures of the scabbard. I hope it will do. I don't think it is pure silver used for the scabbard. It has a copper smell, so i supose it is silver plated or an alloy. The question of Nechesh is a nice one too. Being dressed as a command baton it would be purely ceremonial, but if i look at the blade it isn't so ceremonial at all and will leave a nasty problem for the guy who's standing at the wrong side of it. Attached Images

1st July 2006, 10:03 PM	#7
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,347	A Euro pamor blade ? New to me . Attached Images

24th June 2006, 01:48 AM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,048	In Jawa I have never seen them mounted as spearheads. They are usually mounted in dress that is reminiscent of a command baton. I have seen one in very old dress that was mounted as a keris.I do not believe they have ever been mounted as a tombak in Jawa. I do not think there is any Indian connection with the Javanese pieces. They have always reminded me of an old European bayonet pattern, and this may have been their origin, but I have not seen or owned any that were of European manufacture. All I have handled have been of Indonesian manufacture. Would it be possible for you to provide clear close-ups of the metal scabbard cover. Do you know if this is silver, silver plate, or an alloy, such as mamas?

24th June 2006, 05:38 AM	#2
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Hey Alan, do you have any idea as to the purpose of these blades. Was it meant as a functional weapon or was it more ceremonial ritualistic. I suppose that on the practical side that triangular blade would leave a pretty nasty hole. But is also reminds me of a phurpa which is strictly a ritual weapon.

24th June 2006, 10:17 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,048	Thank you Henk. I was hoping I would recognise embossing of one of the types I am familiar with, but I do not. However, the construction of the pendok does look very Balinese; I am looking at the way the back panel of the pendok is folded up over the sides of the front panel. Silver is very easy to test. You buy a bottle of silver test from a jeweller`s supplier. It is very cheap and lasts for years. David, this is just one blade style amongst many. It is clearly a weapon, and was undoubtedly used as such. Purpose? Termination of human life. The baton style dress is more recent, just as tombak have been dressed as daggers for the last 100 years or so. Even the one I saw dressed as a keris, although the dress was old, was probably only 100 or so years old. It would not have gone back to, say, 1750-1850. Realistically, looking at Henk`s example it is probably a second half of the 20th century scabbard, the ivory somewhat older, and the blade much older. Who knows how many times the dress may have been changed or different styles used?

24th June 2006, 03:23 PM	#5
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Alan, Thanks for your lesson. Although we have a lot of malay weaponry here in Holland, this one was new for me and i have never seen one before. Thanks for your help, Alan. Henk

1st July 2006, 09:34 PM	#6
doecon Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 63	Henk, I think you have found yourself a modified european small sword in indonesian dress. The blade style is clearly not indonesian, but probably north european made (imported by the dutch?). It is probably cut (halfway) and resharpened. The dress is indeed a recent creation, as you can see from the wood (at the beginning of the scabbard) and the metalworks (silver?) There are plenty old european blades being modified in Indonesia, even in more recent times (1900's), your blade looks indeed a bit older. Try cleaning the blade propperly, maybe you still find more makers marks (Solingen?). My guess is its a mid to late 18th small sword.

1st July 2006, 10:48 PM	#8
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	There is little question that the sheath is recent work, though the hilt obviously has some age to it, but it clearly looks like Indonesian work to me. I have never seen a European blade with this type of pamor work.....and why would Mr. Maisey, a man with half a century (sorry Alan, not trying to make you feel old ) of experience and exposure to Indonesian weaponry so clearly identify this weapon by name(s) if he wasn't familar with it? It is obviously something he is familiar with.