Napoleonic saber-Naval ?

Jim McDougall · 9th February 2023, 06:05 PM

Very nice!! Note that in the coat of arms, the three fluer de lis in upper right quadrant are present.....this theoretically changed in 1801, so presumably this is pre that 1801 date. However it is quite possible that technicality was not readily observed, and that blades on hand with cutlers and outfiitters might have been used later.

kronckew · 9th February 2023, 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Very nice!! Note that in the coat of arms, the three fluer de lis in upper right quadrant are present.....this theoretically changed in 1801, so presumably this is pre that 1801 date. However it is quite possible that technicality was not readily observed, and that blades on hand with cutlers and outfiitters might have been used later.

In 1801, when George III renounced his title as King of France under the Treaty of Paris, the French Fleur de Lis quartering was removed,and replaced with the Scottish Lion.

SwordLover79 · 9th February 2023, 10:28 PM

As requested, here are photos of the whole sword. the blade is 32.5" and the overall length is 37.5" This sword has a milder curve than a similar lion headed saber it sits next to on my shelf (blade 30", overall 35.25"). I added photos in case you are interested in seeing both. The second sword is blued with gold for half the length of the blade, and has a very fancy brass guard.

Radboud · 10th February 2023, 07:29 AM

Thank you for the additional photos, at 32.5 inches thats the standard length for the 1796 Pattern LC. So your’s is most certainly a cavalry officers, most likely from the Yeomanry, given the guilding.

Your other sword is the 1803 Pattern ‘Flank Officers’ sword. The flank companies were the Grenadiers and the Light Company that marched on the flank of the regiment. These were seen as the regiments’ elites with the Grenadiers often at the front and in the thick of battle while the Light Company ranged out, scouting ahead and skirmishing with the enemy before full engagement by the regiment. From 1800 the officers of these companies were given permission to carry sabres (a habit they had already acquired) in place of the 1796 Pattern infantry officers sword. Drawing on the ones that were popular in 1803 an official pattern was declared with a lions head pommel and GR cypher for the guard.

Lots of variation exists in the grips, with leather and shagrin being most common, but ivory and wire grips are also found. Because the hilt is the pattern, there is a lot of variation in the length and shape of the blade in these.

Of course, over time others chose to carry these swords, so it is not impossible that your’s belonged to a high ranking general officer, rather than a ‘Flank officer’.

SwordLover79 · 10th February 2023, 03:06 PM

Great information - Thanks!

SwordLover79 · 22nd February 2023, 09:29 PM

Hey Guys: here are photos of two similar sabers in my collection. I purchased them years ago thinking they were Royal Navy. Now I am not so sure...are these Flank Officer swords? Thanks...

toaster5sqn · 23rd February 2023, 07:38 PM

The bottom one is definitely the 1803 pattern flank officers sabre.
The top one is a non regulation (or possibly regimental pattern) sabre it could be a pre 1803 infantry officer, or a light cavalry dress sabre from between 1796 and 1820ish. It could also be naval or yeomanry from the same period. Without provenance or identifying marks there is no way to tell.

Robert

9th February 2023, 10:28 PM	#3
SwordLover79 Member Join Date: Jun 2022 Location: San Diego Posts: 56	late 18th Century British Sabers As requested, here are photos of the whole sword. the blade is 32.5" and the overall length is 37.5" This sword has a milder curve than a similar lion headed saber it sits next to on my shelf (blade 30", overall 35.25"). I added photos in case you are interested in seeing both. The second sword is blued with gold for half the length of the blade, and has a very fancy brass guard. Attached Images

10th February 2023, 03:06 PM	#5
SwordLover79 Member Join Date: Jun 2022 Location: San Diego Posts: 56	Flank Officer Sword Great information - Thanks!

22nd February 2023, 09:29 PM	#6
SwordLover79 Member Join Date: Jun 2022 Location: San Diego Posts: 56	additional sabers or cutlasses Hey Guys: here are photos of two similar sabers in my collection. I purchased them years ago thinking they were Royal Navy. Now I am not so sure...are these Flank Officer swords? Thanks... Attached Images

9th February 2023, 06:05 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Very nice!! Note that in the coat of arms, the three fluer de lis in upper right quadrant are present.....this theoretically changed in 1801, so presumably this is pre that 1801 date. However it is quite possible that technicality was not readily observed, and that blades on hand with cutlers and outfiitters might have been used later.

10th February 2023, 07:29 AM	#4
Radboud Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Location: New Zealand Posts: 285	Thank you for the additional photos, at 32.5 inches thats the standard length for the 1796 Pattern LC. So your’s is most certainly a cavalry officers, most likely from the Yeomanry, given the guilding. Your other sword is the 1803 Pattern ‘Flank Officers’ sword. The flank companies were the Grenadiers and the Light Company that marched on the flank of the regiment. These were seen as the regiments’ elites with the Grenadiers often at the front and in the thick of battle while the Light Company ranged out, scouting ahead and skirmishing with the enemy before full engagement by the regiment. From 1800 the officers of these companies were given permission to carry sabres (a habit they had already acquired) in place of the 1796 Pattern infantry officers sword. Drawing on the ones that were popular in 1803 an official pattern was declared with a lions head pommel and GR cypher for the guard. Lots of variation exists in the grips, with leather and shagrin being most common, but ivory and wire grips are also found. Because the hilt is the pattern, there is a lot of variation in the length and shape of the blade in these. Of course, over time others chose to carry these swords, so it is not impossible that your’s belonged to a high ranking general officer, rather than a ‘Flank officer’.

23rd February 2023, 07:38 PM	#7
toaster5sqn Member Join Date: Jul 2021 Location: New Zealand Posts: 75	The bottom one is definitely the 1803 pattern flank officers sabre. The top one is a non regulation (or possibly regimental pattern) sabre it could be a pre 1803 infantry officer, or a light cavalry dress sabre from between 1796 and 1820ish. It could also be naval or yeomanry from the same period. Without provenance or identifying marks there is no way to tell. Robert