Dating the Schiavons sword

Victrix · 4th January 2023, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cathey

Hi Victrix

I have tried to find a copy of The Collection of Arms of the Split City Museum (Split City Museum, 2012) by Goran Borčić , but it does not appear to be available anywhere. Would you be able to scan the pages relating to Schiavona’s for me?

I have also found some additional material by searching for the word Schiavona sword in Italian and French, and I am now able to start pulling my source material together.

I agree with your observations the more complex the hilt the newer the sword.

Attached is my oldest Schiavona which is has no lattice work and limited bars. I refer to this one as the second pattern and it dates from 1580 to around 1600.

Cheers Cathey

That’s a fabulous sword, Cathey! I think the plain iron pommels are also an indication of age. It seems the bronze ones with relief patterns and “cat’s ears” came later.

As I mentioned earlier, I obtained my copy of “The Collection of Arms of the Split City Museum” (Split City Museum, 2012) by Goran Borčić by chance when visiting the City of Split Museum on vacation (highly recommended!). Roman Emperor Diocletian retired to Split where he built a walled palace for himself. The old town of Split is built into the ruins of this palace and you can stay in hotels within the ancient palace walls. You could try to contact the museum to see if they still have copies of this publication for sale: https://www.mgs.hr/ and email muzej.grada.splita@mgst.net. Bear in mind that this is a substantial coffee table book and postage fees will likely be substantial. See some photos enclosed on the section covering schiavonas.

urbanspaceman · 6th January 2023, 12:33 PM

Probably my favourite sword and one I have yet to acquire.
Here are two examples purely for entertainment.
The first one (lattice basket) was auctioned by Czerny last year but was too expensive for my wallet.
The second one is still for sale but you would need to re-mortgage your house to afford it.

urbanspaceman · 6th January 2023, 01:51 PM

Here is a part of the vendor's description of this spectacular sword and some more photos.

The basket hilt is encrusted in silver, the massive pommel is also silver and decorated with a figure of a noble - perhaps the original owner that commissioned the creation of this masterpiece. The lower hilt is most interesting in that it has a silver guard and original rain-guard built into the tang. The sheath is decorated in leather and pierced silver moulding, and silver extended chape.

urbanspaceman · 6th January 2023, 01:55 PM

Incidentally: that first sword I posted has obviously had the pommel replaced - perhaps by the original owner. The hook for the retaining ring to what was the cat's head is plainly visible.

urbanspaceman · 6th January 2023, 02:15 PM

Firstly, Cathey, please accept my grateful thanks for starting this thread.
Secondly, I suspect I am wrong about the pommel and hook.
Looking at those dating images I see the hook is often present regardless of a retaining ring or hole for its location... sorry about that, I must stop trying to view on my phone.

urbanspaceman · 7th January 2023, 07:00 PM

I'm raising more questions I'm afraid.
First: what are those little hooks for, if not for attaching to the pommel?
Second: is that a wootz blade!!! on the luxurious sword I posted?

Cathey · 8th January 2023, 05:03 AM

Hi Urbanspaceman

I don’t think we are looking at a wootz blade, just some pixelization in the image on that one. I know the site it is currently posted on and some of the images always appear to be lower resolution and tend to pixelate.

With regard to pommels, it appears the latter the sword the fancier the pommel. Also, if it is a fancier version obviously made to order the pommels again vary greatly. I have a sword with a plain Iron pommel that has a mark for the hole, which is not punched through. The brass pommels and wire wrapped guards appear more often on latter swords, the early one plain iron with leather wrapping sewn in place on the grips.

My article research is progressing, so far I have had to google translate, Serbian, french, German and Italian.

Here is my latest Schiavona probably around circa 1780. Note this one has a wire wrapped grip and the most complex hilt variety, being three rows of lattice pattern. This is the one where the hole in the pommel does not go through and at this stage, I have not been able to identify the mark on the forte.

Cheers Cathey

6th January 2023, 12:33 PM	#2
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 620	Schiavons Probably my favourite sword and one I have yet to acquire. Here are two examples purely for entertainment. The first one (lattice basket) was auctioned by Czerny last year but was too expensive for my wallet. The second one is still for sale but you would need to re-mortgage your house to afford it. Attached Images

6th January 2023, 01:51 PM	#3
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 620	More pics Here is a part of the vendor's description of this spectacular sword and some more photos. The basket hilt is encrusted in silver, the massive pommel is also silver and decorated with a figure of a noble - perhaps the original owner that commissioned the creation of this masterpiece. The lower hilt is most interesting in that it has a silver guard and original rain-guard built into the tang. The sheath is decorated in leather and pierced silver moulding, and silver extended chape. Attached Images

6th January 2023, 01:55 PM	#4
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 620	PS Incidentally: that first sword I posted has obviously had the pommel replaced - perhaps by the original owner. The hook for the retaining ring to what was the cat's head is plainly visible.

6th January 2023, 02:15 PM	#5
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 620	PPS Firstly, Cathey, please accept my grateful thanks for starting this thread. Secondly, I suspect I am wrong about the pommel and hook. Looking at those dating images I see the hook is often present regardless of a retaining ring or hole for its location... sorry about that, I must stop trying to view on my phone.

7th January 2023, 07:00 PM	#6
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 620	Me again I'm raising more questions I'm afraid. First: what are those little hooks for, if not for attaching to the pommel? Second: is that a wootz blade!!! on the luxurious sword I posted?

8th January 2023, 05:03 AM	#7
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 284	The Shiavona Hi Urbanspaceman I don’t think we are looking at a wootz blade, just some pixelization in the image on that one. I know the site it is currently posted on and some of the images always appear to be lower resolution and tend to pixelate. With regard to pommels, it appears the latter the sword the fancier the pommel. Also, if it is a fancier version obviously made to order the pommels again vary greatly. I have a sword with a plain Iron pommel that has a mark for the hole, which is not punched through. The brass pommels and wire wrapped guards appear more often on latter swords, the early one plain iron with leather wrapping sewn in place on the grips. My article research is progressing, so far I have had to google translate, Serbian, french, German and Italian. Here is my latest Schiavona probably around circa 1780. Note this one has a wire wrapped grip and the most complex hilt variety, being three rows of lattice pattern. This is the one where the hole in the pommel does not go through and at this stage, I have not been able to identify the mark on the forte. Cheers Cathey Attached Images