Tatar saber for discussion

Jim McDougall · 4th January 2023, 06:20 PM

I am unclear on reference to pommel, the image of the tamga is from the rounded scabbard chape (perhaps I am using wrong term in shashka nomenclature).

I am trying to find my notes from Iaroslav back in the 90s when he was writing his various work on tamgas. His primary interest was the Sarmatians and their influences in Ukraine and surrounding regions if I recall.
As I noted, he agreed with the suggestion that this niello symbol on my scabbard chape was indeed a tamga, and published it in one of his articles as such.

I did find my copy of "Tamgas and Runes, Magic Numbers and Magic Symbols"
("Metropolitan Museum Journal 8, 1973, pp.165-173), where it is noted that "..as early as the 1st century AD tamgas appear among the Sarmatian tribes north of the Black Sea ".

Mr. Nickel describes these citing data from Hans Janischen:
"Die Bildzeichen der Koniglichen Hoheit bei den Iranischen Volkkern" (Bonn, 1956). Here some of the examples seem to have a arrowhead element and some a crescent moon and 8 point star, among others, but some of similar gestalt,.

What is compelling in other sources is the comparison of this 'tamga' on my shashka to the so called arsenal mark of St.Irenes in Istanbul, which is described as a 'mondhugelzeichen' (=moon upon a hill) symbol in Janischen (op. cit). This tamga, an arc (crescent moon) looks more like horns, and is above either square or rounded geometric shapes representing a hill.
This is noted as a Sarmatian tamga and having resemblance in degree to some Glagolitic numerals.

The tamga described as St. Irenes (found on arms stored there until 19th c.)
is a 'moon' at the end of a staff (?) with lines on either side (Nickel ,op. cit. fig.13).
According to the Leiden Manuscript Or. 419W (Nickel), this mark is first of 24 tamgas and belongs to Kayi tribe of Turkic tribes of Aral Steppes 9th c.
This became of course known in Istanbul and used accordingly as these became the Turkish nation.
from; "Arsenalzeichen oder Beshau" (Eduard Lenz, "Zeitschrift fur Historische Waffen und Kostumkunde" 6: 1912-14.. p.299-303.

The attached page with image of the St.Irenes mark is not from this source, but uncited source.

I am not suggesting that the tamga on my sword scabbard has anything to do with St.Irenes, but noting that it is similar in configuration to the moon over hill in Janische, as well as the St. Irenes mark, both descrjbed as tamgas.
Which returns to the question, just how unusual is it for a tamga to appear on a sword in these contexts?

ariel · 4th January 2023, 07:29 PM

Now I understand!
I looked at the entire image, couldn’t find anything, and thought that the image on the throat of the scabbard was the point of discussion. My fault, mea culpa!
The first image, what I thought was the pommel, is the chape with the shashka upside down.
Yes, I fully agree, this looks convincingly like a tamga. It does have some resemblance to the Kayi mark, but differs from it. Perhaps the owner was a distant member of some sub-sub clan?

Crimean Khans were highly respected by the Ottomans to the point that apparently there was an unwritten ( or even written?) rule that in case of the extinction of Sultan’s line the Crimean Khan , as a direct descendant of Chingiz Khan, would assume the Ottoman throne.
Well, the last Khan, Shahin Giray, was exiled by the Russians to the Turkish Rhodes in 1783 and strangled there in 1787 with a silk cord because he allegedly planned to replace the existing Sultan.
Still, he was strangled and not beheaded or stabbed, because royal blood should not have been spilled. Some measure of respect, but the “rule” worked against him. That was how Sultan’s relatives were killed upon his ascent on the throne to prevent any possibility of a coup, and that was how the Mongols killed Russian princes captured at the Battle of Kalka: covered them with a heavy wooden platform and assembled on top of it for a celebratory dinner , smashing the prisoners to pancakes. Again, no royal blood was spilled:-)

Jim McDougall · 5th January 2023, 02:50 PM

No problem, I could have been more clear in my wording.

Staying with the discussion of tamgas, as you have brought forward, and the Tatars as also the focus in discussion of these, I would add this resource (previously mentioned):
"Bron i Uzbrojenie Tatarow" (Tatar Arms and Armor)
Jacek Gotowski, Warsaw, 1997
Item #76
"...only one example of a blade with Tatar ownership is known, this saber with a Tatar tamga sign impressed in its scabbard, and in the Polish Army Museum".

That quote is interesting with regard to my shashka as it suggests the convention was to place the tamga on the scabbard (chape in my case).
However, in revisiting this thread in its 2005 segment, Rsword shows a Tatar sword with apparently the same tamga described in Gutowski but inlaid in the blade.

According to Kirill Rivkin in the discussion, the tamga forms are well known in Tatar contexts including Circassian, and the ancient traditions of the Scythians and Sarmatians. This of course is generally meant and without specifying use on weapons in particular.

As noted, the tamga used by Ottoman military (regarded as to the St. Irene arsenal) is from the Kayi band of the Oguz tribe, and one of the number of examples. Naturally these would vary as required for distinction to the tribe represented.

In rereading through the 2005 discussion it seems there were Turkish tribes present in North Caucusus, and certainly Tatar presence is suggested as well. It would seem there would be abundant possibility to explain the presence of this tamga on the scabbard of a shashka from Vladikavkaz and Daghestani style, despite the rarity of instances of such application.

I brought forward a plate of tamgas from previous discussion for the benefit of current readers as well as picture of the Tatar sword with tamga on blade as referenced in 2005 (comparable to Gutowski example noted).

Jim McDougall · 6th January 2023, 03:25 AM

Found the illustration of the Tatar ordynka with tamga -on SCABBARD mentioned in previous post and on blade of similar sword and same tamga from 2005 discussion.

Also, found detail from correspondence from Lebedynsky (1998) regarding the tamga on my shashka chape. He suggests these kinds of tamga are generally Northwest Caucusus, possibly Abaza (Circassian) but notes the shashka seems of Daghestan origin.
In the original assessment of the sword, 1997 from another source, it is noted the reverse of the locket on the scabbard is inscribed in Arabic 'Sahabi....Afand'. apparently owners name. The Kubachi workmanship is noted and star and crescent in high relief hilt motif, and the unique tamga on chape.
The blade is believed Styrian/Hungarian and earlier 19th c.

Years later in discussion with Kirill Rivkin (2018), he suggested this was likely made in northwest between Vladikavkaz and Nalchik, perhaps either Lak or Dargi Kubachiki craftsman......clearly concurring with the earlier assessment.
He noted tamga were nearly unknown on shashkas, but did seem to occur occasionally on kindjhals, and typically suggested Circassian provenance.

Edster · 7th January 2023, 02:24 AM

Jim,

Your symbols/tribal sword marks are remindful of Sudanese tribal camel brands collected in Darfur to document its history 1200-1700. Most derive from Berber alphabet letters and also indicate other symbolic ownership elements. Sorry they won't copy, but see p.223 and discussion in this 1951 Sudan Notes & Records article
https://sci-hub.se/10.2307/41719553

On Camel Brands, I.G. Hill, SNRV.53, 1972
https://sci-hub.se/10.2307/42678007

Also a 1882 US cattle brand book.
https://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/...age/3/mode/1up

Best,
Ed

Jim McDougall · 7th January 2023, 04:10 AM

Ed, this is an amazing seque which is well observed, and speaks directly to my long fascination with markings, symbols and as you note, including brands. Many years back as I was researching markings found on North African swords, in particular the kaskaras, I had the idea that perhaps some of these might have some connection to ancient Egyptian heiroglyphs.
In looking into that, I read MacMichael (1913) , "The Brands Used by Chief Camel Owning Tribes of Kordofan", as noted in these great links you provided!
Actually, while not a major influence, it seems there were cases where there was indeed some connection to hieroglyphics and some brands.

Tribal symbolism has no boundaries, and is one of the most fascinating aspects of these studies, thank you so much! These articles are outstanding.

4th January 2023, 06:20 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,670	I am unclear on reference to pommel, the image of the tamga is from the rounded scabbard chape (perhaps I am using wrong term in shashka nomenclature). I am trying to find my notes from Iaroslav back in the 90s when he was writing his various work on tamgas. His primary interest was the Sarmatians and their influences in Ukraine and surrounding regions if I recall. As I noted, he agreed with the suggestion that this niello symbol on my scabbard chape was indeed a tamga, and published it in one of his articles as such. I did find my copy of "Tamgas and Runes, Magic Numbers and Magic Symbols" ("Metropolitan Museum Journal 8, 1973, pp.165-173), where it is noted that "..as early as the 1st century AD tamgas appear among the Sarmatian tribes north of the Black Sea ". Mr. Nickel describes these citing data from Hans Janischen: "Die Bildzeichen der Koniglichen Hoheit bei den Iranischen Volkkern" (Bonn, 1956). Here some of the examples seem to have a arrowhead element and some a crescent moon and 8 point star, among others, but some of similar gestalt,. What is compelling in other sources is the comparison of this 'tamga' on my shashka to the so called arsenal mark of St.Irenes in Istanbul, which is described as a 'mondhugelzeichen' (=moon upon a hill) symbol in Janischen (op. cit). This tamga, an arc (crescent moon) looks more like horns, and is above either square or rounded geometric shapes representing a hill. This is noted as a Sarmatian tamga and having resemblance in degree to some Glagolitic numerals. The tamga described as St. Irenes (found on arms stored there until 19th c.) is a 'moon' at the end of a staff (?) with lines on either side (Nickel ,op. cit. fig.13). According to the Leiden Manuscript Or. 419W (Nickel), this mark is first of 24 tamgas and belongs to Kayi tribe of Turkic tribes of Aral Steppes 9th c. This became of course known in Istanbul and used accordingly as these became the Turkish nation. from; "Arsenalzeichen oder Beshau" (Eduard Lenz, "Zeitschrift fur Historische Waffen und Kostumkunde" 6: 1912-14.. p.299-303. The attached page with image of the St.Irenes mark is not from this source, but uncited source. I am not suggesting that the tamga on my sword scabbard has anything to do with St.Irenes, but noting that it is similar in configuration to the moon over hill in Janische, as well as the St. Irenes mark, both descrjbed as tamgas. Which returns to the question, just how unusual is it for a tamga to appear on a sword in these contexts? Attached Images

4th January 2023, 07:29 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Now I understand! I looked at the entire image, couldn’t find anything, and thought that the image on the throat of the scabbard was the point of discussion. My fault, mea culpa! The first image, what I thought was the pommel, is the chape with the shashka upside down. Yes, I fully agree, this looks convincingly like a tamga. It does have some resemblance to the Kayi mark, but differs from it. Perhaps the owner was a distant member of some sub-sub clan? Crimean Khans were highly respected by the Ottomans to the point that apparently there was an unwritten ( or even written?) rule that in case of the extinction of Sultan’s line the Crimean Khan , as a direct descendant of Chingiz Khan, would assume the Ottoman throne. Well, the last Khan, Shahin Giray, was exiled by the Russians to the Turkish Rhodes in 1783 and strangled there in 1787 with a silk cord because he allegedly planned to replace the existing Sultan. Still, he was strangled and not beheaded or stabbed, because royal blood should not have been spilled. Some measure of respect, but the “rule” worked against him. That was how Sultan’s relatives were killed upon his ascent on the throne to prevent any possibility of a coup, and that was how the Mongols killed Russian princes captured at the Battle of Kalka: covered them with a heavy wooden platform and assembled on top of it for a celebratory dinner , smashing the prisoners to pancakes. Again, no royal blood was spilled:-) Last edited by ariel; 4th January 2023 at 07:41 PM.

5th January 2023, 02:50 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,670	No problem, I could have been more clear in my wording. Staying with the discussion of tamgas, as you have brought forward, and the Tatars as also the focus in discussion of these, I would add this resource (previously mentioned): "Bron i Uzbrojenie Tatarow" (Tatar Arms and Armor) Jacek Gotowski, Warsaw, 1997 Item #76 "...only one example of a blade with Tatar ownership is known, this saber with a Tatar tamga sign impressed in its scabbard, and in the Polish Army Museum". That quote is interesting with regard to my shashka as it suggests the convention was to place the tamga on the scabbard (chape in my case). However, in revisiting this thread in its 2005 segment, Rsword shows a Tatar sword with apparently the same tamga described in Gutowski but inlaid in the blade. According to Kirill Rivkin in the discussion, the tamga forms are well known in Tatar contexts including Circassian, and the ancient traditions of the Scythians and Sarmatians. This of course is generally meant and without specifying use on weapons in particular. As noted, the tamga used by Ottoman military (regarded as to the St. Irene arsenal) is from the Kayi band of the Oguz tribe, and one of the number of examples. Naturally these would vary as required for distinction to the tribe represented. In rereading through the 2005 discussion it seems there were Turkish tribes present in North Caucusus, and certainly Tatar presence is suggested as well. It would seem there would be abundant possibility to explain the presence of this tamga on the scabbard of a shashka from Vladikavkaz and Daghestani style, despite the rarity of instances of such application. I brought forward a plate of tamgas from previous discussion for the benefit of current readers as well as picture of the Tatar sword with tamga on blade as referenced in 2005 (comparable to Gutowski example noted). Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 5th January 2023 at 09:54 PM.

6th January 2023, 03:25 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,670	Addendum on Tatar sword tamgas and shashka w/tamga Found the illustration of the Tatar ordynka with tamga -on SCABBARD mentioned in previous post and on blade of similar sword and same tamga from 2005 discussion. Also, found detail from correspondence from Lebedynsky (1998) regarding the tamga on my shashka chape. He suggests these kinds of tamga are generally Northwest Caucusus, possibly Abaza (Circassian) but notes the shashka seems of Daghestan origin. In the original assessment of the sword, 1997 from another source, it is noted the reverse of the locket on the scabbard is inscribed in Arabic 'Sahabi....Afand'. apparently owners name. The Kubachi workmanship is noted and star and crescent in high relief hilt motif, and the unique tamga on chape. The blade is believed Styrian/Hungarian and earlier 19th c. Years later in discussion with Kirill Rivkin (2018), he suggested this was likely made in northwest between Vladikavkaz and Nalchik, perhaps either Lak or Dargi Kubachiki craftsman......clearly concurring with the earlier assessment. He noted tamga were nearly unknown on shashkas, but did seem to occur occasionally on kindjhals, and typically suggested Circassian provenance. Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 6th January 2023 at 03:37 AM.

7th January 2023, 02:24 AM	#5
Edster Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 440	Jim, Your symbols/tribal sword marks are remindful of Sudanese tribal camel brands collected in Darfur to document its history 1200-1700. Most derive from Berber alphabet letters and also indicate other symbolic ownership elements. Sorry they won't copy, but see p.223 and discussion in this 1951 Sudan Notes & Records article https://sci-hub.se/10.2307/41719553 On Camel Brands, I.G. Hill, SNRV.53, 1972 https://sci-hub.se/10.2307/42678007 Also a 1882 US cattle brand book. https://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/...age/3/mode/1up Best, Ed

7th January 2023, 04:10 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,670	Ed, this is an amazing seque which is well observed, and speaks directly to my long fascination with markings, symbols and as you note, including brands. Many years back as I was researching markings found on North African swords, in particular the kaskaras, I had the idea that perhaps some of these might have some connection to ancient Egyptian heiroglyphs. In looking into that, I read MacMichael (1913) , "The Brands Used by Chief Camel Owning Tribes of Kordofan", as noted in these great links you provided! Actually, while not a major influence, it seems there were cases where there was indeed some connection to hieroglyphics and some brands. Tribal symbolism has no boundaries, and is one of the most fascinating aspects of these studies, thank you so much! These articles are outstanding.