Sumatra keris with ivory parts

Wijaya34 · 1st January 2023, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul B.

New suggestions are welcome concerning this keris.

It looks like a 'rejang lebong' keris to me. These type of kerises are popular in the Bengkulu region of sumatra.

Gavin Nugent · 26th January 2023, 04:51 AM

I don't feel this is anything but Elephant ivory where the sampir is concerned... looking at the hulu, I suspect the same source.

I've a much bigger Sundang sampir with the same external recess seen on the one face. Unlike this example, it is a single piece. This led me to some deeper study some time ago, simply because of the size, I could see no other option other than tusk. Digging in to Sperm whale teeth, the largest sizes and the hollow underside just didn't add up.

Here are some images and a good article from which one of the images was drawn from for this thread.

Gavin

Linky; https://static1.squarespace.com/stat...2020+tusks.pdf

SidJ · 26th January 2023, 10:13 AM

I agree with Gavins comment. I own a couple of large sperm whale teeth. They are hollow. I cannot see how the hulu can be whale tooth. The scabbard is elephant t me. It is not whale tooth and not bone. The hulu is also likely elephant. Dugong may be a possibility too.

kai · 26th January 2023, 12:21 PM

Hello Sid,

All teeth that keep growing are hollow and have such a conical pulp cavity.

This hilt is way too large for dugong.

Given the cementum layer visible on both sides of the hilt (back and base - check first pics), I'd still vote for spermwhale - even if it would need to come from a really huge male...

If they had a good chunk for the crosspiece, I just can't fathom why they added additional material on both sides... (On one side only would be less work and look better IMHO.)

Regards,
Kai

SidJ · 26th January 2023, 12:34 PM

Kai
Sperm whale teeth have huge and deep hollows. I have a very large antique tooth from whaling times. There is no way there is enough material to carve a hulu from it. I think unless there is more to support sperm whale tooth this is only speculation.

SidJ · 26th January 2023, 12:38 PM

Sperm whale tooth

kai · 26th January 2023, 05:04 PM

Hello Sid,

Quote:

Sperm whale teeth have huge and deep hollows. I have a very large antique tooth from whaling times. There is no way there is enough material to carve a hulu from it.

Your example is not a representative example - possibly from more towards the base of the jaw? I suppose it got scrapped because there was not enough material for real use.

Here are examples of more typical working teeth including a huge one from Moby Dick...

Regards,
Kai

Rick · 26th January 2023, 05:14 PM

A marine ivory kakatua pommel that shows the core of the sperm whale tooth carved.
A better picture of the pommel.
Sorry for the crappy picture from below.

26th January 2023, 04:51 AM	#2
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	I don't feel this is anything but Elephant ivory where the sampir is concerned... looking at the hulu, I suspect the same source. I've a much bigger Sundang sampir with the same external recess seen on the one face. Unlike this example, it is a single piece. This led me to some deeper study some time ago, simply because of the size, I could see no other option other than tusk. Digging in to Sperm whale teeth, the largest sizes and the hollow underside just didn't add up. Here are some images and a good article from which one of the images was drawn from for this thread. Gavin Linky; https://static1.squarespace.com/stat...2020+tusks.pdf Attached Images

26th January 2023, 12:38 PM	#6
SidJ Member Join Date: Apr 2020 Posts: 233	Sperm whale tooth Attached Images

26th January 2023, 05:14 PM	#8
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,376	A marine ivory kakatua pommel that shows the core of the sperm whale tooth carved. A better picture of the pommel. Sorry for the crappy picture from below. Attached Images

26th January 2023, 10:13 AM	#3
SidJ Member Join Date: Apr 2020 Posts: 233	I agree with Gavins comment. I own a couple of large sperm whale teeth. They are hollow. I cannot see how the hulu can be whale tooth. The scabbard is elephant t me. It is not whale tooth and not bone. The hulu is also likely elephant. Dugong may be a possibility too.

26th January 2023, 12:21 PM	#4
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	Hello Sid, All teeth that keep growing are hollow and have such a conical pulp cavity. This hilt is way too large for dugong. Given the cementum layer visible on both sides of the hilt (back and base - check first pics), I'd still vote for spermwhale - even if it would need to come from a really huge male... If they had a good chunk for the crosspiece, I just can't fathom why they added additional material on both sides... (On one side only would be less work and look better IMHO.) Regards, Kai

26th January 2023, 12:34 PM	#5
SidJ Member Join Date: Apr 2020 Posts: 233	Kai Sperm whale teeth have huge and deep hollows. I have a very large antique tooth from whaling times. There is no way there is enough material to carve a hulu from it. I think unless there is more to support sperm whale tooth this is only speculation.