Keris Jawa?

[Gustav]

Why I post yet another Keris - on this example, mounted in Solo style, we see the same rendition of single Sogokan, and above the Poyuhan the same motif as on Keris of this thread, yet reversed. Wassing-Visser identifyes it as an orchid - we may argue about it, but she apparently had assistance of K.R.T. Hardjonegoro on some matters.

As different as this Keris may be, in overall shape of Sorsoran it has similar feeling of a little bit high and too short Gonjo, but of course much less extreme then Keris from this thread.

[Gustav]

The last Keris of this row may be superfluous - it may not share much characteristics with Keris from this thread, the goldwork of it is less in quality, yet I nevertheless see some relation between them. The closest point it gets similar in execution is the motif above Poyuhan. Overall in motifs and overall picture of goldwork, prominent longer lines combined with some "old style" vegetal motifs, it goes close to the Keris from Mr. Hale's book. The goldwork on Gonjo belov the Gandhik is identical to it.

The hilt of this Keris and the original of this thread have very similar elongated shape, not only regarding Bungkul.

[Gustav]

Alan, I can imagine all this makes little to no sense for you.

From my side thanks for your last post #18, that's all perfectly clear for me.

[A. G. Maisey]

Gustav, you have commented:-

''Alan, I can imagine all this makes little to no sense for you.''

No Gustav, this is not quite so, the photos you have shown do make sense, these example keris do have indicators that would probably get them accepted as originating from somewhere in the Island of Jawa. However, these keris do not have sufficient indicators to tip the balance in favour of a specific tangguh classification.

The Wassing-Visser keris you have presented in two photographs, in one photo it looks like a poor attempt at a Surakarta style, in the other photo I would probably give it as generic Mataram --- I'm talking style here, not origin .

I have had to look at these two photos several times to confirm that I am in fact looking at the same keris.

This keris also has characteristics that place it outside Surakarta and also exclude it from Mataram, but do tend towards the group of keris that bear characteristics congruent with production of a "rare & unusual" keris produced especially for the collector market.

Harjonegoro was well known in the dealer community in Solo as a buyer for this type of keris. In addition he was not always, let us say, ''open'', evidence of this can be found in published works, evidence that is perfectly obvious as falsehood to some people but would be accepted as gospel by others.

The Robert Hales example is regrettably a very indistinct photo --- it might be a bit easier to see detail when I get home and can use a decent monitor. However, yes, I would accept the Hales keris as originating in the Island of Jawa, but I cannot see much agreement between the Hales keris and the keris we have been discussing, in simple terms they do not look similar, the major sticking point is pawakan.

A full length photo would be useful, an initial indicator for all keris is pawakan.

The keris with the loose gonjo I can also accept as Island of Jawa, but again no similarity with the keris under discussion.

To my eye, and using the parameters I was taught to work with, the three examples of keris that you believe to be similar in some way to the keris under discussion are not very similar to this keris at all.

The major deviation is pawakan, but there is also another, the three keris you have posted as examples all have tungkakan, the keris under discussion does not.

All three examples you have posted have greneng, there is very significant variation in these greneng.

Gustav, the things that you consider as binding indicators are not the things that I have been taught to use as binding indicators. For example, gold work of any type can be considered in a similar way to the way we consider dress, it is just makeup. We would never use either gold work or dress as an indicator for determination of blade classification.

In a previous post I wrote this:-

"--- similar motifs can be found in Javanese and other work --- keris & non-keris --- from multiple periods of time ---"

I do accept that all three examples you have posted have similarities, I also accept that all three examples you have posted might be able to be considered as originating within the Island of Jawa, however, my position with the keris under discussion is unaltered, I am not prepared to attempt a classification, there are too many conflicting indicators.

I have said that I cannot classify this keris and then defend that classification, this is so:- I cannot.

But equally, I cannot disallow a point of origin, the keris under discussion could be from almost anywhere, but I fail to see how a specific point of origin could be nominated and then that opinion defended --- at least defended in a way that would be accepted by people who have some understanding of the way in which the Central Javanese keris classification systems are used.

[A. G. Maisey]

*****

[A. G. Maisey]

Gustav, I keep on telling you that you see things differently to the elite keris authorities of Central Jawa, and to me (but I am no Elite), but I have not yet explained how different.

Here is a short list of major indicators that we bring into consideration when trying to determine the classification of a keris blade.

Under each of these heads there are characteristics that can be representative of characteristics found in each established tangguh. I am not going to name these characteristics, nor attempt to explain them, the words & concepts are mostly Javanese and we need to adopt a Javanese frame of reference to achieve entry level understanding, usable understanding can only be achieved through personal tuition on a face to face basis and with access to good examples.

These days there is a multitude of tangguhs, and a lot of these have appeared over the last 30 or so years, they would not all have been recognised as legitimate, in Solo, during the 1980's.

Here I also provide a short list of major, recognised tangguh classifications.

Major Tangguh Classification Indicators as used by Empu Suparman Supowijoyo

Tanting
Besi
Pamor
Baja
Pawakan
Gonjo
Gandhik
Blumbangan
Sogokan
Ada-ada (odo-odo)
Kruwingan
Eluk-lukan
Wadidang

Major Tangguh Classifications as used by Empu Suparman Supowijoyo
Accepted as Javanese
Jenggolo
Pajajaran I
Pajajaran II
Mojopahit
Kahuripan
Pengging
Segaluh
Tuban
Pajang
Mataram Senopati
Mataram Sultan Agung
Tuban Mataram/Pajajaran/Mojopahit
Kartosuro
Surakarta
Koripan
Godean

Accepted as outside Jawa
Madura
Kupang
Bugis

It is important to note that these classification names cannot necessarily be understood in a way that the name itself would seem to indicate, classifications can refer to era, or geographic location, or society, or culture there are other un-named classifications.
Tangguh classification should be understood as the name of a classification only, other meanings should not be read into the name in the absence of expert guidance.

[Gustav]

Alan, thank you for your elaborate response and the Tangguh summary.

My only aim at the beginning was to try to explain, why I don't believe the initial Keris of this thread could originate in South Sumatra, Palembang. I posted the three other Keris, because I (at this point or forever) guess, they all could be from roughly the same time period - end of 18th cent until at latest middle of 19th cent., and come from Central Java. I see and understand, why you doubt such geographical attribution for the initial Keris - oncemore thank you for your last three posts.

Just a clarification about the Keris from Wassing-Visser's book - it was part of King Willem's III collection, that means, most likely collected before 1860. She had help of K.R.T Hardjonegoro identifying items, so there is a possibility, that the identification of the Kinatah motif as orchid, and the estimation of blade as ancient type of Solo Keris be his.

And I have a question about Tungkakan. Can we indeed say, the initial Keris doesn't have one, in contrast to the other three? To me the size of it and at least that on Keris from V-W's book seems to be similar.