Dating the Schiavons sword

[Hotspur]

I don't have a link handy for the Jean Binck article bit here is one by Nathan Robinson.
http://myarmoury.com/feature_spot_schia.html

Cheers
GC

[Hotspur]

Here through the wayback machine
http://web.archive.org/web/201810241.../schiavona.htm

[Cathey]

Thankyou Hotspur, much appreciated. I have also just found an article Jean sent me many years ago before we lost touch in French by Martin Ehretsmann, part 1 and 2 the skeleton guard. It is interesting, this is the first article that talks about the different scabbards.

Do you have any comments with regard to the dating chart, it is pretty much a best guess at this stage, I am hoping as I follow up references, I might be able to nail down the developmental stages. I will keep posting updates on my early research. I am surprised no one else has replied if only to criticise the assumptions in my chart.

Cheers Cathey.

[Cathey]

As a result of reading a french article by Martin Ehretsmann, part 1 and 2 the skeleton guard, I have revised my chart and brought it down to 8 patterns (or groups) becoming progressively more complex. Ending with the last and most complex of what Martin describes as the fishnet guards.

I understand that this does not cover ever variation but hope that I can use this as a method of grouping available examples and to try and create an easier chronology for collectors, particuarly new collector to follow.

As this chart represents the preparation work for an article on the Schiavona, I would be grateful for any assistance and advice.

I have patterns 2,4 and 8 in my collection and access to a pattern 5, I am still looking to secure patterns 1,3, 6 and 7. However, finding these swords when you live in Australia is challenging.

Cheers Cathey

[Victrix]

I’m not familiar with the Ehretsmann articles, and it seems many in the forum aren’t either, so perhaps you can be so kind and share them with the forum?

In The Collection of Arms of the Split City Museum (2012) the author Goran Borčić distinguishes between schiavonas with skeleton and lattice hilt baskets which makes sense. He mentions the oldest known record of the spada schiavonesca in a testament from Dubrovnik (Ragusa) dating from 1391.

Citing a number of sources including Marija Sercer (Macevi schiavone Povijesnog muzeja Hrvatske, 1972), A. Cimarelli (Armi Bianche, 1969), Heribert Seitz (1965), etc he provides approximate dating for schiavona swords. The earliest skeleton hilt swords are from 1H to mid 16thC, those with heartshaped sidebars dating from 1600-1640, and the ones with more decorated sidebars from 17th-18thC. The lattice hilt schiavonas date from as early as 2H 16thC with single layer side bar items from 1H 17thC (more decorative ones 17thC to beginning 18thC), double layer side bars from 17thC, and triple layer side bars versions from 17th-18thC. It seems schiavona swords continued in use by city guards on the Dalmatian coast into the 19thC. I think dating the swords is difficult in that they each seem quite unique (not standardised or regulation issue), and Ewart Oakeshott in his book European Weapons and Armour suggests different styles may have been in use concurrently.

[Victrix]

Found a link to the book by Marija Sercer but it’s in Serbo-Croat and not many pictures unfortunately: https://www.hismus.hr/media/document...oževi.pdf Needs lots of use of Dr. “Google” translation to get much useful info out of it But the author seems to have been a scholarly lady, the more so given that the book was published during the communist time of Yugoslavia.

[Cathey]

Thankyou Victrix,

Here is the link to the Ehretsmann article, its in French so I have had to use Google translate which given this is an old photocopy is less than successful

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1JfB...usp=share_link

Thankyou also for the link to the book by Marija Sercer, I think this will be most useful. I agree dating can only indicative as there does appear to be cross over between the variations and of course if we take blades into account, it becomes even more murky. Based on what I have found thus far I think the chart will be helpful if only as an order to address these in based on hilt complexity. I have Oakeshott as well which I do tend to rely on and a number of other references in other languages.

I am hoping some more recent papers might surface like the book by Marija that I have certainly never seen before. I think I prefer the term Lattice to fishnet when it comes to the latter hilts.

I just find the Schiavone so interesting because of the number of variations.


Cheers Cathey