Bali keris advice and thoughts

A. G. Maisey · 16th December 2022, 10:27 PM

This is a comment on Balinese keris in general, not a comment specifically related to Sid's query.

Most people with a keris interest tend to expect to see a polished finish on a keris that identifies as "Balinese". This is a reasonable expectation, but it is far from a universally correct expectation.

If we consider keris that exist within the Balinese community on Bali we will often find Javanese & other keris that are dressed as Balinese keris. So as a complete kadhutan (low Balinese) or dhuwung (high Balinese) we have a Balinese keris with a Javanese or other blade. Sometimes this blade will have a polished finish, sometimes it will not.

I have a very old Javanese keris that was the pusaka keris of a Den Pasar family, it is a small Javanese Singo Barong keris, and if the blade were to be classified as a Javanese keris it would classify as Majapahit. It is dressed in a very old Balinese Batun Poh wrongko, it has a very old Javanese ivory "raksasa" hilt, and part of a Balinese ivory selut. It is the real thing, absolutely genuine, Balinese pusaka keris. But it is not much like what most collectors would ID as Balinese.

I also have a keris that was once in the possession of the Raja of Badung, this is again a very old keris, in very old, original dress. In form it qualifies as Balinese, but it has the finish that we normally expect to see on a Javanese keris.

Many of the keris that Balinese people consider to be pusaka keris are in fact Javanese keris.

The keris style that collectors identify as the iconic Balinese keris is usually fairly large, elegantly sculpted, finely detailed, with a polished finish to the blade and high contrast material. I believe this style can usually be attributed to South Bali and usually from the 19th century.

The keris scene, on the ground in Bali & Jawa is as I remarked earlier, not quite as cut & dried as we might like to believe.

SidJ · 16th December 2022, 11:24 PM

Thanks Alan and David,
Very valid and informative points indeed. Well, it's an interesting thing one way or another and fairly easy on the eye as far as I'm concerned. It was worth trying to glean some more information on this. Thanks very much for your views.

kai · 20th December 2022, 11:13 PM

Hello Sid,

Apologies for joining the party late!

Despite handling this keris a long time ago, I can't add much to what has already been mentioned:

I'm pretty sure the gonjo got crafted on Bali or Lombok.

The pamor does resemble what can be, for example, commonly be found on keris from Madura; however, as already mentioned for the rougher surface texture, this doesn't negate a possible origin from Bali/Lombok, either!

Once you receive this keris, a peek on the pesi might allow additional insights!

This keris was exhibited & published a while ago: Follow the link given by me in post #31 of this thread:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21646
Check piece #16 on page 90 of the catalog in English language!

This catalog is also still available as book in both languages, I believe.

Regards,
Kai

SidJ · 26th December 2022, 01:17 AM

Thanks Kai
Im in the process of getting a copy of the catalogue. I will also need to find a Gayaman scabbard for this keris.

A. G. Maisey · 26th December 2022, 02:28 AM

Sid, this is a Balinese keris, it is 41.2cm in length = +/-16.25", that is right on the edge of being too long for Javanese, apart from which the original catalog description comments that it is accompanied by a batun poh wrongko.

So question is now what has happened to the wrongko that was with it when it was exhibited?

The second thing is this:- it needs a baton poh wrongko , not a gayaman.

SidJ · 26th December 2022, 10:23 AM

Hi Alan
Yes you're right. I meant the batun poh. Presumably this is the commonly seen rounded mouthpiece Balinese scabbard shape so should be relatively easy to find.

Best
Sid

A. G. Maisey · 26th December 2022, 10:31 AM

It might not be Sid, but who knows?

You might get lucky.

SidJ · 26th December 2022, 11:22 AM

Alan
Sadly the scabbard it was exhibited with has been lost. It's odd this has occurred given it was in a collection and had a degree of public exposure. But I expect we will never know why this has happened.

A. G. Maisey · 26th December 2022, 06:39 PM

Maybe somebody needed a Bali scabbard Sid?

Unlike Javanese keris dress, Balinese keris dress is made specifically for each keris. In Jawa you can go to a market and have a wide choice of pre-made keris dress, and most Javanese keris are made within parameters that will permit most keris blades to fit most keris scabbards.

For Balinese keris the blade is given to a tukang wrongko & he makes the scabbard to fit.

16th December 2022, 10:27 PM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	This is a comment on Balinese keris in general, not a comment specifically related to Sid's query. Most people with a keris interest tend to expect to see a polished finish on a keris that identifies as "Balinese". This is a reasonable expectation, but it is far from a universally correct expectation. If we consider keris that exist within the Balinese community on Bali we will often find Javanese & other keris that are dressed as Balinese keris. So as a complete kadhutan (low Balinese) or dhuwung (high Balinese) we have a Balinese keris with a Javanese or other blade. Sometimes this blade will have a polished finish, sometimes it will not. I have a very old Javanese keris that was the pusaka keris of a Den Pasar family, it is a small Javanese Singo Barong keris, and if the blade were to be classified as a Javanese keris it would classify as Majapahit. It is dressed in a very old Balinese Batun Poh wrongko, it has a very old Javanese ivory "raksasa" hilt, and part of a Balinese ivory selut. It is the real thing, absolutely genuine, Balinese pusaka keris. But it is not much like what most collectors would ID as Balinese. I also have a keris that was once in the possession of the Raja of Badung, this is again a very old keris, in very old, original dress. In form it qualifies as Balinese, but it has the finish that we normally expect to see on a Javanese keris. Many of the keris that Balinese people consider to be pusaka keris are in fact Javanese keris. The keris style that collectors identify as the iconic Balinese keris is usually fairly large, elegantly sculpted, finely detailed, with a polished finish to the blade and high contrast material. I believe this style can usually be attributed to South Bali and usually from the 19th century. The keris scene, on the ground in Bali & Jawa is as I remarked earlier, not quite as cut & dried as we might like to believe.

16th December 2022, 11:24 PM	#2
SidJ Member Join Date: Apr 2020 Posts: 222	Thanks Alan and David, Very valid and informative points indeed. Well, it's an interesting thing one way or another and fairly easy on the eye as far as I'm concerned. It was worth trying to glean some more information on this. Thanks very much for your views.

20th December 2022, 11:13 PM	#3
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	Hello Sid, Apologies for joining the party late! Despite handling this keris a long time ago, I can't add much to what has already been mentioned: I'm pretty sure the gonjo got crafted on Bali or Lombok. The pamor does resemble what can be, for example, commonly be found on keris from Madura; however, as already mentioned for the rougher surface texture, this doesn't negate a possible origin from Bali/Lombok, either! Once you receive this keris, a peek on the pesi might allow additional insights! This keris was exhibited & published a while ago: Follow the link given by me in post #31 of this thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21646 Check piece #16 on page 90 of the catalog in English language! This catalog is also still available as book in both languages, I believe. Regards, Kai

26th December 2022, 01:17 AM	#4
SidJ Member Join Date: Apr 2020 Posts: 222	Thanks Kai Im in the process of getting a copy of the catalogue. I will also need to find a Gayaman scabbard for this keris.

26th December 2022, 02:28 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	Sid, this is a Balinese keris, it is 41.2cm in length = +/-16.25", that is right on the edge of being too long for Javanese, apart from which the original catalog description comments that it is accompanied by a batun poh wrongko. So question is now what has happened to the wrongko that was with it when it was exhibited? The second thing is this:- it needs a baton poh wrongko , not a gayaman.

26th December 2022, 10:23 AM	#6
SidJ Member Join Date: Apr 2020 Posts: 222	Hi Alan Yes you're right. I meant the batun poh. Presumably this is the commonly seen rounded mouthpiece Balinese scabbard shape so should be relatively easy to find. Best Sid

26th December 2022, 10:31 AM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	It might not be Sid, but who knows? You might get lucky.

26th December 2022, 11:22 AM	#8
SidJ Member Join Date: Apr 2020 Posts: 222	Alan Sadly the scabbard it was exhibited with has been lost. It's odd this has occurred given it was in a collection and had a degree of public exposure. But I expect we will never know why this has happened.

26th December 2022, 06:39 PM	#9
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	Maybe somebody needed a Bali scabbard Sid? Unlike Javanese keris dress, Balinese keris dress is made specifically for each keris. In Jawa you can go to a market and have a wide choice of pre-made keris dress, and most Javanese keris are made within parameters that will permit most keris blades to fit most keris scabbards. For Balinese keris the blade is given to a tukang wrongko & he makes the scabbard to fit.