Bali keris advice and thoughts

A. G. Maisey · 16th December 2022, 07:54 PM

Sid, you have asked 8 questions, I will address these questions one by one

1) Is this keris 30 years old?
I do not know, see post #3

2) Is this keris part of the batch you refer to?
I do not know, see post #3

3) Did that maker couple a smooth ganja with a rough textured Javanese type blade to add interest?
I would guess that there was more than a single maker involved in the production of what we can see in your photos. There are a number of reasons why the gonjo has been replaced and it is impossible for me make a reasonable guess on why it has been replaced. See post #3.

4) Why not add a scabbard to add value?
We do not know the history of this keris, I think it would have had a scabbard at one time.

5) Why are there not more of these recent types not seen in the meaketplace?
Because not many more, if any more were made.

6) After 30 odd years one could reasonably expect this.
Not necessarily; we are dealing with a niche market and an ethnographic artefact that in its cultural context has quite specific parameters within which to function. We do not know who it was made for, nor why it was made, we do not know if it is something that was produced to function within a cultural context or if it was produced to function within a context other than its designated cultural context. See post #3.

7) Or is this on the balance of probabilities exactly what it is stated as namely a 19th century antique with unique features?
In my opinion it is not a 19th century antique. The body of the blade (wilahan) might have some age, or it might not, I cannot give a supportable opinion on the basis of a photo. The gonjo is very likely to be much more recent than the wilahan. See post #3

8) What is more likely on the facts?
What facts Sid? I cannot see any facts that I could take into even a lower court and expect somebody with no specialist knowledge to agree with. If I were to be granted the status of "expert witness" I could reasonably expect that some people would accept what I have said, and that others would not.

In summary, it is in my opinion impossible to form and support a firm opinion on the age and reason for being of this keris.

A. G. Maisey · 16th December 2022, 10:27 PM

This is a comment on Balinese keris in general, not a comment specifically related to Sid's query.

Most people with a keris interest tend to expect to see a polished finish on a keris that identifies as "Balinese". This is a reasonable expectation, but it is far from a universally correct expectation.

If we consider keris that exist within the Balinese community on Bali we will often find Javanese & other keris that are dressed as Balinese keris. So as a complete kadhutan (low Balinese) or dhuwung (high Balinese) we have a Balinese keris with a Javanese or other blade. Sometimes this blade will have a polished finish, sometimes it will not.

I have a very old Javanese keris that was the pusaka keris of a Den Pasar family, it is a small Javanese Singo Barong keris, and if the blade were to be classified as a Javanese keris it would classify as Majapahit. It is dressed in a very old Balinese Batun Poh wrongko, it has a very old Javanese ivory "raksasa" hilt, and part of a Balinese ivory selut. It is the real thing, absolutely genuine, Balinese pusaka keris. But it is not much like what most collectors would ID as Balinese.

I also have a keris that was once in the possession of the Raja of Badung, this is again a very old keris, in very old, original dress. In form it qualifies as Balinese, but it has the finish that we normally expect to see on a Javanese keris.

Many of the keris that Balinese people consider to be pusaka keris are in fact Javanese keris.

The keris style that collectors identify as the iconic Balinese keris is usually fairly large, elegantly sculpted, finely detailed, with a polished finish to the blade and high contrast material. I believe this style can usually be attributed to South Bali and usually from the 19th century.

The keris scene, on the ground in Bali & Jawa is as I remarked earlier, not quite as cut & dried as we might like to believe.

SidJ · 16th December 2022, 11:24 PM

Thanks Alan and David,
Very valid and informative points indeed. Well, it's an interesting thing one way or another and fairly easy on the eye as far as I'm concerned. It was worth trying to glean some more information on this. Thanks very much for your views.

kai · 20th December 2022, 11:13 PM

Hello Sid,

Apologies for joining the party late!

Despite handling this keris a long time ago, I can't add much to what has already been mentioned:

I'm pretty sure the gonjo got crafted on Bali or Lombok.

The pamor does resemble what can be, for example, commonly be found on keris from Madura; however, as already mentioned for the rougher surface texture, this doesn't negate a possible origin from Bali/Lombok, either!

Once you receive this keris, a peek on the pesi might allow additional insights!

This keris was exhibited & published a while ago: Follow the link given by me in post #31 of this thread:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21646
Check piece #16 on page 90 of the catalog in English language!

This catalog is also still available as book in both languages, I believe.

Regards,
Kai

SidJ · 26th December 2022, 01:17 AM

Thanks Kai
Im in the process of getting a copy of the catalogue. I will also need to find a Gayaman scabbard for this keris.

A. G. Maisey · 26th December 2022, 02:28 AM

Sid, this is a Balinese keris, it is 41.2cm in length = +/-16.25", that is right on the edge of being too long for Javanese, apart from which the original catalog description comments that it is accompanied by a batun poh wrongko.

So question is now what has happened to the wrongko that was with it when it was exhibited?

The second thing is this:- it needs a baton poh wrongko , not a gayaman.

SidJ · 26th December 2022, 10:23 AM

Hi Alan
Yes you're right. I meant the batun poh. Presumably this is the commonly seen rounded mouthpiece Balinese scabbard shape so should be relatively easy to find.

Best
Sid

SidJ · 26th December 2022, 11:22 AM

Alan
Sadly the scabbard it was exhibited with has been lost. It's odd this has occurred given it was in a collection and had a degree of public exposure. But I expect we will never know why this has happened.

16th December 2022, 07:54 PM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	Sid, you have asked 8 questions, I will address these questions one by one 1) Is this keris 30 years old? I do not know, see post #3 2) Is this keris part of the batch you refer to? I do not know, see post #3 3) Did that maker couple a smooth ganja with a rough textured Javanese type blade to add interest? I would guess that there was more than a single maker involved in the production of what we can see in your photos. There are a number of reasons why the gonjo has been replaced and it is impossible for me make a reasonable guess on why it has been replaced. See post #3. 4) Why not add a scabbard to add value? We do not know the history of this keris, I think it would have had a scabbard at one time. 5) Why are there not more of these recent types not seen in the meaketplace? Because not many more, if any more were made. 6) After 30 odd years one could reasonably expect this. Not necessarily; we are dealing with a niche market and an ethnographic artefact that in its cultural context has quite specific parameters within which to function. We do not know who it was made for, nor why it was made, we do not know if it is something that was produced to function within a cultural context or if it was produced to function within a context other than its designated cultural context. See post #3. 7) Or is this on the balance of probabilities exactly what it is stated as namely a 19th century antique with unique features? In my opinion it is not a 19th century antique. The body of the blade (wilahan) might have some age, or it might not, I cannot give a supportable opinion on the basis of a photo. The gonjo is very likely to be much more recent than the wilahan. See post #3 8) What is more likely on the facts? What facts Sid? I cannot see any facts that I could take into even a lower court and expect somebody with no specialist knowledge to agree with. If I were to be granted the status of "expert witness" I could reasonably expect that some people would accept what I have said, and that others would not. In summary, it is in my opinion impossible to form and support a firm opinion on the age and reason for being of this keris. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 16th December 2022 at 09:09 PM. Reason: grammar

16th December 2022, 10:27 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	This is a comment on Balinese keris in general, not a comment specifically related to Sid's query. Most people with a keris interest tend to expect to see a polished finish on a keris that identifies as "Balinese". This is a reasonable expectation, but it is far from a universally correct expectation. If we consider keris that exist within the Balinese community on Bali we will often find Javanese & other keris that are dressed as Balinese keris. So as a complete kadhutan (low Balinese) or dhuwung (high Balinese) we have a Balinese keris with a Javanese or other blade. Sometimes this blade will have a polished finish, sometimes it will not. I have a very old Javanese keris that was the pusaka keris of a Den Pasar family, it is a small Javanese Singo Barong keris, and if the blade were to be classified as a Javanese keris it would classify as Majapahit. It is dressed in a very old Balinese Batun Poh wrongko, it has a very old Javanese ivory "raksasa" hilt, and part of a Balinese ivory selut. It is the real thing, absolutely genuine, Balinese pusaka keris. But it is not much like what most collectors would ID as Balinese. I also have a keris that was once in the possession of the Raja of Badung, this is again a very old keris, in very old, original dress. In form it qualifies as Balinese, but it has the finish that we normally expect to see on a Javanese keris. Many of the keris that Balinese people consider to be pusaka keris are in fact Javanese keris. The keris style that collectors identify as the iconic Balinese keris is usually fairly large, elegantly sculpted, finely detailed, with a polished finish to the blade and high contrast material. I believe this style can usually be attributed to South Bali and usually from the 19th century. The keris scene, on the ground in Bali & Jawa is as I remarked earlier, not quite as cut & dried as we might like to believe.

16th December 2022, 11:24 PM	#3
SidJ Member Join Date: Apr 2020 Posts: 222	Thanks Alan and David, Very valid and informative points indeed. Well, it's an interesting thing one way or another and fairly easy on the eye as far as I'm concerned. It was worth trying to glean some more information on this. Thanks very much for your views.

20th December 2022, 11:13 PM	#4
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	Hello Sid, Apologies for joining the party late! Despite handling this keris a long time ago, I can't add much to what has already been mentioned: I'm pretty sure the gonjo got crafted on Bali or Lombok. The pamor does resemble what can be, for example, commonly be found on keris from Madura; however, as already mentioned for the rougher surface texture, this doesn't negate a possible origin from Bali/Lombok, either! Once you receive this keris, a peek on the pesi might allow additional insights! This keris was exhibited & published a while ago: Follow the link given by me in post #31 of this thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21646 Check piece #16 on page 90 of the catalog in English language! This catalog is also still available as book in both languages, I believe. Regards, Kai

26th December 2022, 01:17 AM	#5
SidJ Member Join Date: Apr 2020 Posts: 222	Thanks Kai Im in the process of getting a copy of the catalogue. I will also need to find a Gayaman scabbard for this keris.

26th December 2022, 02:28 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	Sid, this is a Balinese keris, it is 41.2cm in length = +/-16.25", that is right on the edge of being too long for Javanese, apart from which the original catalog description comments that it is accompanied by a batun poh wrongko. So question is now what has happened to the wrongko that was with it when it was exhibited? The second thing is this:- it needs a baton poh wrongko , not a gayaman.

26th December 2022, 10:23 AM	#7
SidJ Member Join Date: Apr 2020 Posts: 222	Hi Alan Yes you're right. I meant the batun poh. Presumably this is the commonly seen rounded mouthpiece Balinese scabbard shape so should be relatively easy to find. Best Sid

26th December 2022, 11:22 AM	#8
SidJ Member Join Date: Apr 2020 Posts: 222	Alan Sadly the scabbard it was exhibited with has been lost. It's odd this has occurred given it was in a collection and had a degree of public exposure. But I expect we will never know why this has happened.