Pommel Ring on British Dragoon Swords 18th c.

Jim McDougall · 8th December 2022, 11:07 PM

To add to hilts already shown with the pommel ring, this is a Glasgow hilt, often associated in references to Royal Scots Greys (Royal North British Dragoons pre.1713). The notable feature in the guard structure termed the 'horsemans ring' has been pretty much resolved to have been for holding reins while discharging firearms while still holding sword.

It was long thought this feature was after 1750, however it is now known to have been used in British dragoon hilts much earlier, possibly the early years of the century.

The pommel ring is seen at top of the guard assembly to rest just below pommel, and in the manner I am noting in the light dragoon sword c.1756 (?).
There are numbers of other British dragoon basket hilts with varying guard structures , but all using this pommel ring.

It is of course possible, perhaps likely, that a number of hilt makers of 'old school' still held to this manner of construction, but largely this seems a convention that was popular in British dragoon swords first half 18th c.

Hotspur · 9th December 2022, 06:43 PM

What was the question again?

Quote:

What I am wondering is when did this means of securing the guard end? and go to the knuckleguard or guard assembly going into the side of the pommel begin?

If we look at the English 1788 as the 'beginning' of a pierced pommel, in the sense of a four slot hilt, then the AR would be the end of the ring.

Yet, we can go back more than a century to find compound hilts piercing pommels along with screws instead at the same time.

I would believe that the ring assembly adds significant strength in a blow and how a backstrap was also a means to an end. Curious then that the 1788 heavy was inherently weaker

Cheers
GC

Hotspur · 9th December 2022, 06:50 PM

Also, my brass slot spadroon and others do without the ring and are 1780s

Jim McDougall · 9th December 2022, 07:09 PM

Thanks Glen, I had hoped to see you here on this. What I am trying to figure out is concerning the 'ring under pommel' type of setup to secure the guard, and when this method began and ended. I know that with Scottish baskets, the arms of the assembled shields were inserted into a slotted ridge in pommel.
English swords from the time of mortuaries etc. screwed the guard attachment to the side of the pommel.

But at some point, seemingly with British dragoon swords, this circular ring evolved, and as you note, by 1770s, it was to the pommel side mount by single insertion. This is seen on the 1759 light dragoon forms similar to mine.

On that note, it seems that Potter in New York modeled his saber after the same style hilt as my example, and DID use the pommel ring, this was I think 1776.
Can you shed some light on the Potter, and how these differ from my example, and I think the Potters had curved blades.

I apologize for the wording and not being able to describe these features properly.

P.S. what is AR ?

8th December 2022, 11:07 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,295	To add to hilts already shown with the pommel ring, this is a Glasgow hilt, often associated in references to Royal Scots Greys (Royal North British Dragoons pre.1713). The notable feature in the guard structure termed the 'horsemans ring' has been pretty much resolved to have been for holding reins while discharging firearms while still holding sword. It was long thought this feature was after 1750, however it is now known to have been used in British dragoon hilts much earlier, possibly the early years of the century. The pommel ring is seen at top of the guard assembly to rest just below pommel, and in the manner I am noting in the light dragoon sword c.1756 (?). There are numbers of other British dragoon basket hilts with varying guard structures , but all using this pommel ring. It is of course possible, perhaps likely, that a number of hilt makers of 'old school' still held to this manner of construction, but largely this seems a convention that was popular in British dragoon swords first half 18th c. Attached Images

9th December 2022, 06:50 PM	#3
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 514	Also, my brass slot spadroon and others do without the ring and are 1780s Attached Images

9th December 2022, 07:09 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,295	Thanks Glen, I had hoped to see you here on this. What I am trying to figure out is concerning the 'ring under pommel' type of setup to secure the guard, and when this method began and ended. I know that with Scottish baskets, the arms of the assembled shields were inserted into a slotted ridge in pommel. English swords from the time of mortuaries etc. screwed the guard attachment to the side of the pommel. But at some point, seemingly with British dragoon swords, this circular ring evolved, and as you note, by 1770s, it was to the pommel side mount by single insertion. This is seen on the 1759 light dragoon forms similar to mine. On that note, it seems that Potter in New York modeled his saber after the same style hilt as my example, and DID use the pommel ring, this was I think 1776. Can you shed some light on the Potter, and how these differ from my example, and I think the Potters had curved blades. I apologize for the wording and not being able to describe these features properly. P.S. what is AR ?