THE BORDER REIVERS.

urbanspaceman · 30th November 2022, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Of course! I wasn't thinking about the terrain at all, was I? So the two-handed claidheigm da laim was out. I had heard mention of a 'winjer' before and found the attached information (or at least picture). Looks like an Italian-sytle falchion! Very interesting! Thank you for those excellent references as well. Interesting how the one page mentions the main gauche. Is this weapon associted with this region at that time? The parrying dagger was an excellent implement, I just wasn't sure if there was a preferred use for it over the Scotch dirk or ballock.

https://www.pinterest.co.uk/pin/347410558741707302/

I note the incredible image of a whinger is on Pinterest courtesy of Mr Moffatt
https://fallingangelslosthighways.bl.../?view=classic
I am so looking forward to visiting his museum

Peter Hudson · 2nd December 2022, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

I note the incredible image of a whinger is on Pinterest courtesy of Mr Moffatt
https://fallingangelslosthighways.bl.../?view=classic
I am so looking forward to visiting his museum

Hello Keith, Yes he has some amazing gear there and hopefully some will be displayed at his Museum in Hawick when it opens...
Regards,
Peter Hudson.

Peter Hudson · 2nd December 2022, 04:48 PM

Fencing especially from horseback didnt get taught in any formal way such as developed from documents such as on the Continent from "Fencing Book (Fechtbuch) | German" principles moreover, it was developed as you went along such as The Lockerbie Lick from skirmishes at the Battle of Dryfe Sands. A powerful backhand downstrike of the sword from the saddle.

Please see http://reivers.info/battle-of-dryfe-sands/

urbanspaceman · 2nd December 2022, 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Hudson

Fencing especially from horseback didnt get taught in any formal way such as developed from documents such as on the Continent from "Fencing Book (Fechtbuch) | German" principles moreover, it was developed as you went along such as The Lockerbie Lick from skirmishes at the Battle of Dryfe Sands. A powerful backhand downstrike of the sword from the saddle.

Please see http://reivers.info/battle-of-dryfe-sands/

This is great stuff Peter. The website above is superb. Seems we are not the only folk interested.

Peter Hudson · 3rd December 2022, 05:30 PM

Hello Keith, Clearly Mr Brian Moffat has had a huge struggle to win political support for a museum at Hawick (pronounced Hoik) on the subject of Border Reivers. Something similar transpired over Shotley Bridge which has nothing of note on their concreted over history...Most people I spoke with in Shotley had no idea about it although one or two had heard of THe Lampton Worm

...For Mr Moffat to be now poised to open a Border Reivers Museum has done wonders and that will inspire the Border Reivers story to be learned by all ...I would bet that it is absent from the History teaching syllabus in this region. Once it has opened we should drive up there and have a look.

Regards,
Peter Hudson.

Peter Hudson · 3rd December 2022, 07:58 PM

Hello Jim,
In many ways local nicknames have given weapons meanings and sounds quite unfamiliar with the original and for this the Northern accent is a leader in its field as I peer out on the chilly Northumberland landscape which looks like "Ginny will be soon Ploatin' the geese" meaning it will soon be snowing! Northerners quite often suplant peculiar wordage in strange subjects built arround the peculiar accent and the distinct description of a weapon or object as well as giving an honorary nickname to a known warrior and it seems that may be linked in places in the USA that Borderers were Transported to in the 17thC before and after Culloden.Thus Indian Warriors could be given tough fighting names such as Sitting Bull or Crazy Horse etc. According to an early Artesan working as a designer in Shotley Bridge the name of hunting animals was coined for many English Seamen roaming the country and huge numbers of English Seamen came from up north, following their forced retirement from duty since no proper insurance had been placed should they be badly injured as many were at Trafalgar etc. This nicknaming was also applied to Border Reiver leaders and key characters ...as well as to weapons with the favoured curved sabre getting the name Whinger and the lance the Pricker. The bullet proofed Jacket was shortened to Jack and en masse the cavalry made up of these hardened local fighters could be termed Prickers or taking another name from the white sheeps wool overcoat to that of ..White Coats. or in describing them as Steel Bonnets as the head armour would often be the steel helmet of the lobster pot style. The cross bow was known as The Latch.. after its latch style release mechanism...

Regards,
Peter Hudson.

Peter Hudson · 3rd December 2022, 08:27 PM

One special weapon appears particularly on the Scottish side of the Borders and that is outlined here; https://doi.org/10.1163/9789047407577_023

Thus 2 alternatives ...the one being the Jeddart (Jedburgh) Staff and the other the Lochaber Axe.
The article suggests that it was not used to unhorse an opponent but more to hang the weapon on the wall...It seems there were two versions ...The Jedburgh Staff and Lochaber Axe and you can decide if it was useful? ...I think it was ... and as the Border Reiver had a lot of straps on weapons and riding gear... hooking him off his horse would seem to me as very possible. assuming you could get inside lance or sword etc...

Peter Hudson.

urbanspaceman · 3rd December 2022, 08:31 PM

Apologies for hi-jacking this thread while it is drawing good attention.
This expression was usually applied to the Yanks and the Brits, but could be applied quite equally to our island's four countries... ruling out their indigenous language and considering purely the shared English language.
Mostly, we can all understand each other over here; but it is often not the case for you folks over the pond. My friends in Oregon needs subtitles for the majority of British TV and movies and even then they constantly email me to translate a particular word or phrase.

This brings me to the point of this post: where did the name Colichemarde come from?
It sounds French, but was only ever a neologism from 1801 onwards over there, when even regular small-swords were passe by then.
Sir William Hope's mention in 1707 of the Koningsberg blade describes a colichemarde quite precisely.
I've already proposed that the colichemarde blade was machine made, and the machine was chased out of Solingen and established in Shotley Bridge, but it certainly isn't a word or name that was ever heard over here.
All input is gratefully received.

Jim McDougall · 3rd December 2022, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Hudson

Fencing especially from horseback didnt get taught in any formal way such as developed from documents such as on the Continent from "Fencing Book (Fechtbuch) | German" principles moreover, it was developed as you went along such as The Lockerbie Lick from skirmishes at the Battle of Dryfe Sands. A powerful backhand downstrike of the sword from the saddle.

Please see http://reivers.info/battle-of-dryfe-sands/

This is really interesting Peter! and I had never heard of this 'Lockerbie Lick'! I always wonder at the many localized idioms used to describe these sword fighting 'tricks'. It seems the Scots had very distinct moves and measures they employed in fencing, and these are well described by Donald McBane in "The Expert Swordsmans Companion"(1728) and the "Scots Fencing Master" by Sir William Hope (1687).

The Spaniards in their mysterious, geometric 'Spanish fight' called destreza, used many unique 'tricks' which were regarded as formidable, if not deadly, despite the derision with which this elaborate style was often regarded.

2nd December 2022, 04:48 PM	#3
Peter Hudson Member Join Date: Jul 2020 Posts: 320	Fencing especially from horseback didnt get taught in any formal way such as developed from documents such as on the Continent from "Fencing Book (Fechtbuch) \| German" principles moreover, it was developed as you went along such as The Lockerbie Lick from skirmishes at the Battle of Dryfe Sands. A powerful backhand downstrike of the sword from the saddle. Please see http://reivers.info/battle-of-dryfe-sands/ Last edited by Peter Hudson; 2nd December 2022 at 05:00 PM.

3rd December 2022, 05:30 PM	#5
Peter Hudson Member Join Date: Jul 2020 Posts: 320	Hello Keith, Clearly Mr Brian Moffat has had a huge struggle to win political support for a museum at Hawick (pronounced Hoik) on the subject of Border Reivers. Something similar transpired over Shotley Bridge which has nothing of note on their concreted over history...Most people I spoke with in Shotley had no idea about it although one or two had heard of THe Lampton Worm...For Mr Moffat to be now poised to open a Border Reivers Museum has done wonders and that will inspire the Border Reivers story to be learned by all ...I would bet that it is absent from the History teaching syllabus in this region. Once it has opened we should drive up there and have a look. Regards, Peter Hudson.

3rd December 2022, 08:27 PM	#7
Peter Hudson Member Join Date: Jul 2020 Posts: 320	One special weapon appears particularly on the Scottish side of the Borders and that is outlined here; https://doi.org/10.1163/9789047407577_023 Thus 2 alternatives ...the one being the Jeddart (Jedburgh) Staff and the other the Lochaber Axe. The article suggests that it was not used to unhorse an opponent but more to hang the weapon on the wall...It seems there were two versions ...The Jedburgh Staff and Lochaber Axe and you can decide if it was useful? ...I think it was ... and as the Border Reiver had a lot of straps on weapons and riding gear... hooking him off his horse would seem to me as very possible. assuming you could get inside lance or sword etc... Peter Hudson. Last edited by Peter Hudson; 3rd December 2022 at 08:44 PM.

3rd December 2022, 08:31 PM	#8
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 715	Separated by a common language. Apologies for hi-jacking this thread while it is drawing good attention. This expression was usually applied to the Yanks and the Brits, but could be applied quite equally to our island's four countries... ruling out their indigenous language and considering purely the shared English language. Mostly, we can all understand each other over here; but it is often not the case for you folks over the pond. My friends in Oregon needs subtitles for the majority of British TV and movies and even then they constantly email me to translate a particular word or phrase. This brings me to the point of this post: where did the name Colichemarde come from? It sounds French, but was only ever a neologism from 1801 onwards over there, when even regular small-swords were passe by then. Sir William Hope's mention in 1707 of the Koningsberg blade describes a colichemarde quite precisely. I've already proposed that the colichemarde blade was machine made, and the machine was chased out of Solingen and established in Shotley Bridge, but it certainly isn't a word or name that was ever heard over here. All input is gratefully received. Last edited by urbanspaceman; 3rd December 2022 at 08:33 PM. Reason: add apology

3rd December 2022, 07:58 PM	#6
Peter Hudson Member Join Date: Jul 2020 Posts: 320	Hello Jim, In many ways local nicknames have given weapons meanings and sounds quite unfamiliar with the original and for this the Northern accent is a leader in its field as I peer out on the chilly Northumberland landscape which looks like "Ginny will be soon Ploatin' the geese" meaning it will soon be snowing! Northerners quite often suplant peculiar wordage in strange subjects built arround the peculiar accent and the distinct description of a weapon or object as well as giving an honorary nickname to a known warrior and it seems that may be linked in places in the USA that Borderers were Transported to in the 17thC before and after Culloden.Thus Indian Warriors could be given tough fighting names such as Sitting Bull or Crazy Horse etc. According to an early Artesan working as a designer in Shotley Bridge the name of hunting animals was coined for many English Seamen roaming the country and huge numbers of English Seamen came from up north, following their forced retirement from duty since no proper insurance had been placed should they be badly injured as many were at Trafalgar etc. This nicknaming was also applied to Border Reiver leaders and key characters ...as well as to weapons with the favoured curved sabre getting the name Whinger and the lance the Pricker. The bullet proofed Jacket was shortened to Jack and en masse the cavalry made up of these hardened local fighters could be termed Prickers or taking another name from the white sheeps wool overcoat to that of ..White Coats. or in describing them as Steel Bonnets as the head armour would often be the steel helmet of the lobster pot style. The cross bow was known as The Latch.. after its latch style release mechanism... Regards, Peter Hudson.