Pesh-kabz dating.

[Interested Party]

It looks like Rajasthan to me. The question I have wondered is are many of these old parts mixed with new, or all new with aging to some areas?

[Battara]

I had one of these with Urdu on it the was made in the 1960s - several decades also therefore also.

[mariusgmioc]

Yes, this is indeed of recent production.

Moreover, I do not consider this to be a pesh-kabz as it doesn't have any of the characteristics that define the pesh-kabz. It does neither have the long, sleek blade with a T- spine, nor the typical hilt adapted for under-hand grip.

I would call this knife a zirah-bouk as it has the typical reinforced "armour piercing" tip.

I have seen many modern versions of this type of knife but very, very few that are genuinely antique.

[Battara]

You bring up a good point (every pun intended )

[kronckew]

Definitely indian zirah-bouk-ish, but a bit crude. Grip doesn't look like it is intended for that blade.


Mine, late 20c +/- Zirah Bouk. I bought it because I liked it.

[mariusgmioc]

Yep, this would be a typical zirah-bouk.
And I like it too!

I wonder if any forum member can post some images and information about a genuinely antique, 19th century zirah-bouk?! ��

I am asking because I haven't seen any in all the museums I have visited in India (and I have visited quite a few).

Moreover, from the practical point of view, all the zirah-bouks I have seen, while looking very impressive and attractive, are of almost no practical use whatsoever. The heavily recurved blade does not provide a good and stable transmission of the force to the tip of the knife, and the very thick tip is very badly suited for armour penetration. In fact, these knives because of their thickened tips are worse at armour penetration than pretty much any ordinary khanjar/jambiya or kard.

So, I suspect these knives are mostly a 20th century development for the tourist market.

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Yep, this would be a typical zirah-bouk.
And I like it too!

... the very thick tip is very badly suited for armour penetration. ...

So, I suspect these knives are mostly a 20th century development for the tourist market.

the spike on pole-axes, halberds, Guden tags, and even some rondels, of much the same cross section & shapes, ruined the days of many an armoured knight, not penetrating the armour, but the gaps, throats, eyes, ears, etc. An unarmoured Indian warrior would be very vulnerable, I would think, tho personally I'd rather have a nice sharp bowie.

[Nihl]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

I wonder if any forum member can post some images and information about a genuinely antique, 19th century zirah-bouk?! ��

I was initially going to reply to this stating that I believe I have, in fact, seen 19th century zirah bouk before, however after reviewing those older examples I know of it seems as though they are all of such nebulous form that it is near impossible to tell 19th century from 20th century versions. Indeed, ultimately, it does not matter much; in either century these were likely made for tourists, as those aforementioned "earlier examples" I know of were neither less decorated nor of a more functional form than those from the 20th century.

Zirah bouk are ultimately though still functional designs. They might not actually be the "bestest armor piercer ever", nor used on the historical battlefield, but they are still far from the zaniest weapon type - made for tourists or not - created and/or used in India. Like Ariel said, if it is sharpened it would still be useful in a bar fight

[ariel]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Yes, this is indeed of recent production.

Moreover, I do not consider this to be a pesh-kabz as it doesn't have any of the characteristics that define the pesh-kabz. It does neither have the long, sleek blade with a T- spine, nor the typical hilt adapted for under-hand grip.

I would call this knife a zirah-bouk as it has the typical reinforced "armour piercing" tip.

I have seen many modern versions of this type of knife but very, very few that are genuinely antique.

It cannot be a pesh kabz: those are single edged.
This one is a crude and recent khanjar-like ( double edged) souvenir with a zirah bouk tip . If it is sharpened, it can be very useful in a midnight bar melee.