Rare folding knives for your enjoyment

[fernando]

Thank you for coming in, Chris .

I believe that, although Portuguese cuttlery has significant presence, with tracks back to the 17th century, in parallel with Spanish expansion (their Kings were ruling in Portugal at the time), the career of our neighbor's navaja was more emphasized by writers, result of its profusely use by the common Spaniard. I suspect the Portuguese locking systems were plain manners to prevent the navalha to close in their hands and not those belic ratchet systems from (some) Spanish navajas. But i am playing a bit by ear, as i do not find solid material to expand better the subject.
Concerning the law, the old illiterate saying was that a blade to be legal to carry, must not be longer than a palm of the hand ... cross wise. The written law says that a blade longer than 10 cms. is considerd a weapon, thus ilegal.


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[Chris Evans]

Hi Fernando,

Concerning the law, the old illiterate saying was that a blade to be legal to carry, must not be longer than a palm of the hand ... cross wise. The written law says that a blade longer than 10 cms. is considerd a weapon, thus ilegal.

From what Forton tells us, the Spanish navaja came into being on account of the laws that prohibited swords and fixed blade knives early in the 18th century, after the Burbons took over- I was wondering if there was a similar ban on weapons in Portugal at around the same time or in the 19th century.

Cheers
Chris

[fernando]

Hi Chris,
I will try (hard) to find some data on the subject; apparently not so easy.

[fernando]

Well Chris, this is what i got from a Portuguese antique arms authority; whether it fits the context and answers your question..


In the 16th to 18th centuries, the use and carrying of a navalha (provided it was not used with bad intentions) was free.
Navalha was called a knife with a folding blade, whose cutting part should not exceed the width of four fingers of an ordinary man, that is, 10 cm.
Once Alicante, Toledo and Seville had, in Napoleonic times, supplied navalhas of enormous dimensions, copying the idea of ​​the French navy's boarding saber, which allowed the blade to be folded into the handle, such giant navalhas were called "cuchilos to kill the French", who had banned them.
This denomination is just a popular curiosity. There was no law other than the banning of French occupation forces, both in Spain and Portugal.
Portuguese legislation made no difference between a folding blade (navalha) or a non-folding blade, knife or dagger.
There were laws in the 18th century that forbade knives with triangular blades, so called "diamantadas" or "diamond" blades. The penalties were severe. Being a nobleman, he was applied ten years of exile to Angola. If not, it was ten years in the galleys, which amounted to a very likely death penalty. Left-handed daggers were forbidden to any ordinary citizen and only used in combat zones of declared war. The sword could only be five spans long. Being larger than allowed by law was confiscated and heavily penalized both the bearer and the seller or manufacturer.
The "hand palm length navalha story" is an unregulated popular myth.

[mariusgmioc]

The large oversized navajas were indeed used for fighting...

[fernando]

Spanish half vara or 17 3/4" is about 45 cms.. Assuming this is the length with the blade unfolded, it is a big knife but, incomparably not so large as those huge things made for show off. The one posted in the last picture of #1 measures 113 cms. and we know there were larger specimens.
The example held by the First Spaniard may be a bit exuberated by the author.

[Chris Evans]

Hi Fernando,

Thanks for that information re Navalhas in olden times. Seems that Portugal was marching to a different drummer than Spain after the Burbons took over.

Cheers
Chris

[Chris Evans]

Hi Fernando

Originally Posted by fernando

.......Assuming this is the length with the blade unfolded<Snip>

Why do you assume that the measurement refers to the blade length, as opposed to the overall length? After all folding and fixed blade knives are often described by their overall length as well as by their blade length.

Of course, we'll never know which dimension the author had in mind but if it described OL, then the blade length would be around 18cm, entirely consistent with what Forton tells us and that is the length of the majority of surviving Spanish pre 1900 navajas.

Cheers
Chris

[Chris Evans]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

The large oversized navajas were indeed used for fighting...

Those illustrations are imbued with what we call these days `artistic license' and Gustav Dore was the grand master of dramatic illustrations.

I refer you to post #13 in http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...anual+baratero

Cheers
Chris

[werecow]

Originally Posted by fernando

the width of four fingers of an ordinary man, that is, 10 cm.

}\:o.

*glances at own apparently tiny hands*

[fernando]

Originally Posted by werecow

}\.

*glances at own apparently tiny hands*

Well, it depends somehow from where you measure the fingers.
I, for one, am no dwarf


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[werecow]

Hah! Well, let's just say I will comfort myself with the thought that my hands will fit even the smallest sword grip.