Rare folding knives for your enjoyment

Chris Evans · 25th October 2022, 02:00 AM

Hi Fernando,

Read your PM.

Thank you for posting these pics, would love to know more about `navalhas' but unfortunately my inability to read Portuguese is a major handicap.

From what I have seen here and there, they appear to parallel Spanish and French designs.

Can you throw some or any light on the laws that were applicable to these knives?

As for their size, I tend to agree that the larger ones were either showpieces or else intended for tourists as collectables. From having examined quite a number over the years I came to the conclusion that once the blade length exceeded something like 200mm they became very weak at the pivot point and were unsuited for any real world application other than dramatic effect.

Cheers
Chris

fernando · 25th October 2022, 01:10 PM

Thank you for coming in, Chris

.

I believe that, although Portuguese cuttlery has significant presence, with tracks back to the 17th century, in parallel with Spanish expansion (their Kings were ruling in Portugal at the time), the career of our neighbor's navaja was more emphasized by writers, result of its profusely use by the common Spaniard. I suspect the Portuguese locking systems were plain manners to prevent the navalha to close in their hands and not those belic ratchet systems from (some) Spanish navajas. But i am playing a bit by ear, as i do not find solid material to expand better the subject.
Concerning the law, the old illiterate saying was that a blade to be legal to carry, must not be longer than a palm of the hand ... cross wise. The written law says that a blade longer than 10 cms. is considerd a weapon, thus ilegal.

.

Chris Evans · 26th October 2022, 06:31 AM

Hi Fernando,

Quote:

Concerning the law, the old illiterate saying was that a blade to be legal to carry, must not be longer than a palm of the hand ... cross wise. The written law says that a blade longer than 10 cms. is considerd a weapon, thus ilegal.

From what Forton tells us, the Spanish navaja came into being on account of the laws that prohibited swords and fixed blade knives early in the 18th century, after the Burbons took over- I was wondering if there was a similar ban on weapons in Portugal at around the same time or in the 19th century.

Cheers
Chris

fernando · 26th October 2022, 06:17 PM

Hi Chris,
I will try (hard) to find some data on the subject; apparently not so easy.

fernando · 30th October 2022, 01:08 PM

Well Chris, this is what i got from a Portuguese antique arms authority; whether it fits the context and answers your question..

In the 16th to 18th centuries, the use and carrying of a navalha (provided it was not used with bad intentions) was free.
Navalha was called a knife with a folding blade, whose cutting part should not exceed the width of four fingers of an ordinary man, that is, 10 cm.
Once Alicante, Toledo and Seville had, in Napoleonic times, supplied navalhas of enormous dimensions, copying the idea of the French navy's boarding saber, which allowed the blade to be folded into the handle, such giant navalhas were called "cuchilos to kill the French", who had banned them.
This denomination is just a popular curiosity. There was no law other than the banning of French occupation forces, both in Spain and Portugal.
Portuguese legislation made no difference between a folding blade (navalha) or a non-folding blade, knife or dagger.
There were laws in the 18th century that forbade knives with triangular blades, so called "diamantadas" or "diamond" blades. The penalties were severe. Being a nobleman, he was applied ten years of exile to Angola. If not, it was ten years in the galleys, which amounted to a very likely death penalty. Left-handed daggers were forbidden to any ordinary citizen and only used in combat zones of declared war. The sword could only be five spans long. Being larger than allowed by law was confiscated and heavily penalized both the bearer and the seller or manufacturer.
The "hand palm length navalha story" is an unregulated popular myth.

mariusgmioc · 30th October 2022, 03:00 PM

The large oversized navajas were indeed used for fighting...

fernando · 30th October 2022, 05:30 PM

Spanish half vara or 17 3/4" is about 45 cms.. Assuming this is the length with the blade unfolded, it is a big knife but, incomparably not so large as those huge things made for show off. The one posted in the last picture of #1 measures 113 cms. and we know there were larger specimens.
The example held by the First Spaniard may be a bit exuberated by the author.

Chris Evans · 1st November 2022, 07:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

The large oversized navajas were indeed used for fighting...

Those illustrations are imbued with what we call these days `artistic license' and Gustav Dore was the grand master of dramatic illustrations.

I refer you to post #13 in http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...anual+baratero

Cheers
Chris

werecow · 3rd November 2022, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

the width of four fingers of an ordinary man, that is, 10 cm.

}\:o.

*glances at own apparently tiny hands*

fernando · 3rd November 2022, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by werecow

}\

.

*glances at own apparently tiny hands*

Well, it depends somehow from where you measure the fingers.
I, for one, am no dwarf

.

25th October 2022, 01:10 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thank you for coming in, Chris . I believe that, although Portuguese cuttlery has significant presence, with tracks back to the 17th century, in parallel with Spanish expansion (their Kings were ruling in Portugal at the time), the career of our neighbor's navaja was more emphasized by writers, result of its profusely use by the common Spaniard. I suspect the Portuguese locking systems were plain manners to prevent the navalha to close in their hands and not those belic ratchet systems from (some) Spanish navajas. But i am playing a bit by ear, as i do not find solid material to expand better the subject. Concerning the law, the old illiterate saying was that a blade to be legal to carry, must not be longer than a palm of the hand ... cross wise. The written law says that a blade longer than 10 cms. is considerd a weapon, thus ilegal. . Attached Images

30th October 2022, 03:00 PM	#6
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,911	The large oversized navajas were indeed used for fighting... Attached Images

25th October 2022, 02:00 AM	#1
Chris Evans Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 685	Hi Fernando, Read your PM. Thank you for posting these pics, would love to know more about `navalhas' but unfortunately my inability to read Portuguese is a major handicap. From what I have seen here and there, they appear to parallel Spanish and French designs. Can you throw some or any light on the laws that were applicable to these knives? As for their size, I tend to agree that the larger ones were either showpieces or else intended for tourists as collectables. From having examined quite a number over the years I came to the conclusion that once the blade length exceeded something like 200mm they became very weak at the pivot point and were unsuited for any real world application other than dramatic effect. Cheers Chris

26th October 2022, 06:17 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Chris, I will try (hard) to find some data on the subject; apparently not so easy.

30th October 2022, 01:08 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Well Chris, this is what i got from a Portuguese antique arms authority; whether it fits the context and answers your question.. In the 16th to 18th centuries, the use and carrying of a navalha (provided it was not used with bad intentions) was free. Navalha was called a knife with a folding blade, whose cutting part should not exceed the width of four fingers of an ordinary man, that is, 10 cm. Once Alicante, Toledo and Seville had, in Napoleonic times, supplied navalhas of enormous dimensions, copying the idea of the French navy's boarding saber, which allowed the blade to be folded into the handle, such giant navalhas were called "cuchilos to kill the French", who had banned them. This denomination is just a popular curiosity. There was no law other than the banning of French occupation forces, both in Spain and Portugal. Portuguese legislation made no difference between a folding blade (navalha) or a non-folding blade, knife or dagger. There were laws in the 18th century that forbade knives with triangular blades, so called "diamantadas" or "diamond" blades. The penalties were severe. Being a nobleman, he was applied ten years of exile to Angola. If not, it was ten years in the galleys, which amounted to a very likely death penalty. Left-handed daggers were forbidden to any ordinary citizen and only used in combat zones of declared war. The sword could only be five spans long. Being larger than allowed by law was confiscated and heavily penalized both the bearer and the seller or manufacturer. The "hand palm length navalha story" is an unregulated popular myth.

30th October 2022, 05:30 PM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Spanish half vara or 17 3/4" is about 45 cms.. Assuming this is the length with the blade unfolded, it is a big knife but, incomparably not so large as those huge things made for show off. The one posted in the last picture of #1 measures 113 cms. and we know there were larger specimens. The example held by the First Spaniard may be a bit exuberated by the author.