Come and Take It! The Gonzalez Cannon

fernando · 12th October 2022, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by midelburgo

... I understand that a gun with the characteristics of the first gun with servers in Fernando post, will fall in the mentioned table under "cerbatana"...

The caption in the previously posted example clearly define it as an esmeril. Perhaps the author was wrong ... or not. Maybe not so easy to figure out which is which among the universe of early gun variations. On the other hand, cerbatana, in Portuguese zarabatana, is basically a blowgun; go figure.
Easier to take into account is the difference in size betweeen a 1/4 pound shot and a six pound... for what matters.

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midelburgo · 17th October 2022, 10:39 PM

I took a shot of the table at the Olesa Muñido book. This is only for XVI and XVIIth centuries.

fernando · 18th October 2022, 11:05 AM

Excelent material; will safe to my files.

Jim McDougall · 18th October 2022, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by midelburgo

I took a shot of the table at the Olesa Muñido book. This is only for XVI and XVIIth centuries.

Im with Fernando! very valuable material! Thank you so much! will also add to my files!
While 16th and 17th c. these guns were often in use far longer than just generations, which was why they were so valued.

fernando · 19th October 2022, 11:58 AM

Not to forget that, Portuguese typologies of this period (and not only) had plenty (most) gun types coinciding with those from Spain but also had different ones, both only with a different name and others with different characteristics. A pity i don't know of a source where they are all listed in one table.
There was the 48 pounder bronze LEÃO (lion), the IV century stone shot CÃO (dog) larger than the Berço and no curved tail, the CAMELO (camel) and the CAMELETE, equivalent to a 1/3 stone shot Cannon, the stone shot ÁSPIDE, equivalent to half bastard culverin, the ESPERA (wait) equivalent to 1/3 cannon, the impressive ESPALHAFATO (great fuss) also denomitaded TOURO (wild bull) that threw a 92 Kilos (over 200 pouds) stone ball. And so on ...
Despite the of Portuguese arsenals patrimony was devastated by Acts of God (1755 earthquake), and 'borrowed' by dominating powers, one of the greatest bronze cannon collections in the world is kept in the pateo of the Lisbon Military Museum and also in its galeries.

fernando · 20th October 2022, 04:23 PM

If i may still assault Jim's thread, this is the Vasco da Gama room in the Lisbon Military Museum, where all the types mentioned in my previous post (and more) are exhibited.

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LouG · 19th July 2023, 06:11 PM

Gentlemen---In reading your most interesting posts, I gather that what we call a "culverin" is termed in Spanish a "culebrina", and if so, these "culebrinas" (based on the Olesa Munido page posted by Midelburgo) were made in a range of sizes, small as well as large. I mention this because the books on artillery I have here all describe a culverin as a big gun; but a particular episode of 1590 concerning a Spanish military action in present-day New Mexico seems to preclude the possibility that the culverins involved were big, heavy pieces. So the specific question is: in Spanish military parlance of the late XVI Century, a "culebrina" could be as small as a falcon, correct?

fernando · 19th July 2023, 07:28 PM

Welcome to the forum, Lou

. The section on the left of thr chart that encompasses culverins is more a generic for guns basic typology. In fact, and as you may see in the 'class' column, culverins and half culverins are long barreled pieces with a significant reach. Also you may see in the chart that a (legit) culverin is over four times heavier than a falcon.
As per the term, culverin in English, Colubrina in Spanish and Portuguese and Couleuvrine in French, derive from the Latin term for Cobra (snake). As you well know, in an early stage artillery pieces were given animal names.

LouG · 19th July 2023, 09:16 PM

Thanks for your note, Fernando. And yes, I see your point. But here's the story, and it presents a puzzle.

In 1590 a Spanish expedition made up of about 170 soldiers and civilians under Castano de Sosa worked its way north from Mexico well into present-day New Mexico. With the expedition were a number of wheeled vehicles---ox-drawn carretas, and two culverins. Much of the ground was rough, and the journalist repeatedly mentions the breaking of carreta wheels or axles (but nothing specific here about the culverins). When they reached the great multi-story Pueblo of Pecos (near present Santa Fe, New Mexico), there was a sharp battle with the occupants, during which the maese de campo ordered four men "...to climb to the top with one of the artillery pieces. The men did so, although with much difficulty, because the Indians were harrying them fiercely..."

So we see that these "culverins" were pulled a long way over rough ground with no special problem, and even hauled up the side of a pueblo during a battle. Therefore, I doubt that they were true full-size culverins, and were probably something considerably smaller. But.....quien sabe?

17th October 2022, 10:39 PM	#2
midelburgo Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 278	I took a shot of the table at the Olesa Muñido book. This is only for XVI and XVIIth centuries. Attached Images

20th October 2022, 04:23 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	If i may still assault Jim's thread, this is the Vasco da Gama room in the Lisbon Military Museum, where all the types mentioned in my previous post (and more) are exhibited. . Attached Images

19th July 2023, 06:11 PM	#7
LouG Member Join Date: Apr 2022 Posts: 5	Spanish Culverins of the XVI Century Gentlemen---In reading your most interesting posts, I gather that what we call a "culverin" is termed in Spanish a "culebrina", and if so, these "culebrinas" (based on the Olesa Munido page posted by Midelburgo) were made in a range of sizes, small as well as large. I mention this because the books on artillery I have here all describe a culverin as a big gun; but a particular episode of 1590 concerning a Spanish military action in present-day New Mexico seems to preclude the possibility that the culverins involved were big, heavy pieces. So the specific question is: in Spanish military parlance of the late XVI Century, a "culebrina" could be as small as a falcon, correct?

19th July 2023, 09:16 PM	#9
LouG Member Join Date: Apr 2022 Posts: 5	Spanish Artillery Thanks for your note, Fernando. And yes, I see your point. But here's the story, and it presents a puzzle. In 1590 a Spanish expedition made up of about 170 soldiers and civilians under Castano de Sosa worked its way north from Mexico well into present-day New Mexico. With the expedition were a number of wheeled vehicles---ox-drawn carretas, and two culverins. Much of the ground was rough, and the journalist repeatedly mentions the breaking of carreta wheels or axles (but nothing specific here about the culverins). When they reached the great multi-story Pueblo of Pecos (near present Santa Fe, New Mexico), there was a sharp battle with the occupants, during which the maese de campo ordered four men "...to climb to the top with one of the artillery pieces. The men did so, although with much difficulty, because the Indians were harrying them fiercely..." So we see that these "culverins" were pulled a long way over rough ground with no special problem, and even hauled up the side of a pueblo during a battle. Therefore, I doubt that they were true full-size culverins, and were probably something considerably smaller. But.....quien sabe?

18th October 2022, 11:05 AM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Excelent material; will safe to my files.

19th October 2022, 11:58 AM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Not to forget that, Portuguese typologies of this period (and not only) had plenty (most) gun types coinciding with those from Spain but also had different ones, both only with a different name and others with different characteristics. A pity i don't know of a source where they are all listed in one table. There was the 48 pounder bronze LEÃO (lion), the IV century stone shot CÃO (dog) larger than the Berço and no curved tail, the CAMELO (camel) and the CAMELETE, equivalent to a 1/3 stone shot Cannon, the stone shot ÁSPIDE, equivalent to half bastard culverin, the ESPERA (wait) equivalent to 1/3 cannon, the impressive ESPALHAFATO (great fuss) also denomitaded TOURO (wild bull) that threw a 92 Kilos (over 200 pouds) stone ball. And so on ... Despite the of Portuguese arsenals patrimony was devastated by Acts of God (1755 earthquake), and 'borrowed' by dominating powers, one of the greatest bronze cannon collections in the world is kept in the pateo of the Lisbon Military Museum and also in its galeries.

19th July 2023, 07:28 PM	#8
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Welcome to the forum, Lou . The section on the left of thr chart that encompasses culverins is more a generic for guns basic typology. In fact, and as you may see in the 'class' column, culverins and half culverins are long barreled pieces with a significant reach. Also you may see in the chart that a (legit) culverin is over four times heavier than a falcon. As per the term, culverin in English, Colubrina in Spanish and Portuguese and Couleuvrine in French, derive from the Latin term for Cobra (snake). As you well know, in an early stage artillery pieces were given animal names.