Is this a Firangi ?

Jim McDougall · 22nd September 2022, 03:38 AM

Indian sword terminology is challenging, at best.
If I have understood correctly, a sword with Hindu basket hilt and with a curved blade is termed 'kirach'. If it is with straight blade it is termed 'sukhela', in the Maratha counterpart of the straight blade but gauntlet hilt 'pata'.

If the Hindu basket hilt has a straight foreign blade, it call be deemed a firangi (=foreign blade, as noted), but it does not seem the firangi term is generally applied to curved bladed swords or patas.

In the north of course, the curved saber is termed tulwar, regardless of Indo-Persian hilt or Persian style (shamshir) hilt. In the native army in British service sabers are called tulwars even with three bar hilts.

As Mahratt notes, the alemani term was used in Deccan and southern regions where German mercenaries were active with of course curved sabers.

Three tulwars:
First, the familiar Indo-Persian hilt, Rajasthan
second, Persian type grip, Deccan, M1788 British Lt. Cav. blade
third, Native cavalry, 21st cavalry Frontier Force, by Mole.

In Indian parlance all termed tulwar, as far as I have known the firangi term is not applied with tulwars.

These are my interpretations, and I would be glad for any corrections or additions.

werecow · 22nd September 2022, 05:05 AM

FWIW, according to a Bengali friend of mine, pata just means sword - like many of these collector's terms I suppose.

And I was under the impression that the term kirach referred more specifically to a slightly forward curved (but not recurved) sword, like this one:

Rick · 22nd September 2022, 06:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by werecow

FWIW, according to a Bengali friend of mine, pata just means sword - like many of these collector's terms I suppose.

And I was under the impression that the term kirach referred more specifically to a slightly forward curved (but not recurved) sword, like this one:

Yes and some more than slightly forward curved.

Jim McDougall · 23rd September 2022, 05:11 PM

Again, the terminologies in Indian swords are probably even more complex and convoluted than even most other ethnographic weapon forms, where in some cases it has been suggested that with many archipelago types a term can vary from village to village (obviously a bit exaggerated).

In Rawson, "The Indian Sword" (1969, p.90, n.89, p.46) "..."Kirach" is a common Hindustani term for a sword, but here it is taken to refer only to one with a blade which, being mainly straight, is slightly curved forward at the tip like a scythe blade. It is a Deccan weapon".
Elgood ("Hindu Arms & Ritual", 2004. p.252) notes that a Kirach in the Deccan the kirach "may have a slight forward inclination at the tip of the blade". It is defined as a heavy, straight thrusting sword.

On the same page, referring to the 'sukhela' (or dhup, or Hindu basket hilt or whatever), "...if, as often is the case, the blade is of foreign, that is European, origin, the sword is often referred to as 'phirangi' which means 'stranger'". However this apparent variation of the Hindu basket hilt seems to have a blade longer than usual so not exactly the same as the khanda or firangi. The sukhela/dhup is not clearly illustrated nor explained in either of these, but makes the point of the terminology dilemma.

From the examples of kirach I have seen, as Rick has noted, the blade seems 'forward' , that is, edge on the inside. But these kinds of blades, as recurved forms (and scythes as noted in description) are hacking type blades, not for thrusting.

To say study of Indian arms is challenging is an understatement.

werecow · 23rd September 2022, 11:12 PM

That looks like a fun sword, Rick. Is that a T-section at the forte?

It looks mean. Almost like it's meant to slice bite-sized bits off of and maybe, uhm, "peel" the opponent. *shiver*

Rick · 24th September 2022, 02:28 AM

It's a great thrusting sword.
No T spine, but it is sharpened about 2/3 of that length, and the point is thickened.
Would this blade be considered a firangi?

22nd September 2022, 03:38 AM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,457	Indian sword terminology is challenging, at best. If I have understood correctly, a sword with Hindu basket hilt and with a curved blade is termed 'kirach'. If it is with straight blade it is termed 'sukhela', in the Maratha counterpart of the straight blade but gauntlet hilt 'pata'. If the Hindu basket hilt has a straight foreign blade, it call be deemed a firangi (=foreign blade, as noted), but it does not seem the firangi term is generally applied to curved bladed swords or patas. In the north of course, the curved saber is termed tulwar, regardless of Indo-Persian hilt or Persian style (shamshir) hilt. In the native army in British service sabers are called tulwars even with three bar hilts. As Mahratt notes, the alemani term was used in Deccan and southern regions where German mercenaries were active with of course curved sabers. Three tulwars: First, the familiar Indo-Persian hilt, Rajasthan second, Persian type grip, Deccan, M1788 British Lt. Cav. blade third, Native cavalry, 21st cavalry Frontier Force, by Mole. In Indian parlance all termed tulwar, as far as I have known the firangi term is not applied with tulwars. These are my interpretations, and I would be glad for any corrections or additions. Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 22nd September 2022 at 03:56 AM.

22nd September 2022, 05:05 AM	#2
werecow Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Location: Leiden, NL Posts: 588	FWIW, according to a Bengali friend of mine, pata just means sword - like many of these collector's terms I suppose. And I was under the impression that the term kirach referred more specifically to a slightly forward curved (but not recurved) sword, like this one:

23rd September 2022, 05:11 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,457	Again, the terminologies in Indian swords are probably even more complex and convoluted than even most other ethnographic weapon forms, where in some cases it has been suggested that with many archipelago types a term can vary from village to village (obviously a bit exaggerated). In Rawson, "The Indian Sword" (1969, p.90, n.89, p.46) "..."Kirach" is a common Hindustani term for a sword, but here it is taken to refer only to one with a blade which, being mainly straight, is slightly curved forward at the tip like a scythe blade. It is a Deccan weapon". Elgood ("Hindu Arms & Ritual", 2004. p.252) notes that a Kirach in the Deccan the kirach "may have a slight forward inclination at the tip of the blade". It is defined as a heavy, straight thrusting sword. On the same page, referring to the 'sukhela' (or dhup, or Hindu basket hilt or whatever), "...if, as often is the case, the blade is of foreign, that is European, origin, the sword is often referred to as 'phirangi' which means 'stranger'". However this apparent variation of the Hindu basket hilt seems to have a blade longer than usual so not exactly the same as the khanda or firangi. The sukhela/dhup is not clearly illustrated nor explained in either of these, but makes the point of the terminology dilemma. From the examples of kirach I have seen, as Rick has noted, the blade seems 'forward' , that is, edge on the inside. But these kinds of blades, as recurved forms (and scythes as noted in description) are hacking type blades, not for thrusting. To say study of Indian arms is challenging is an understatement.

23rd September 2022, 11:12 PM	#5
werecow Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Location: Leiden, NL Posts: 588	That looks like a fun sword, Rick. Is that a T-section at the forte? It looks mean. Almost like it's meant to slice bite-sized bits off of and maybe, uhm, "peel" the opponent. shiver

24th September 2022, 02:28 AM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,347	It's a great thrusting sword. No T spine, but it is sharpened about 2/3 of that length, and the point is thickened. Would this blade be considered a firangi?