Archaic kris for comment

Interested Party · 14th September 2022, 08:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JBG163

XasteriX,
Actually, that line is quite a mystery to me. You can see the pattern going through the line.

So, if the keris was broken, then welded back together, it would be almost impossible to have the pattern exactly corresponding.
==> So, it's not a weld line...

Other possibility... It's the quench line.... But i doubt it is.
I honestly grind my mind

Agreed a forge weld of a broken blade would show a scarp joint. Here are two random theories: 1. Stress fracture that opened and was welded (closed) during the forging process? 2. Silver solder of a break?

Bonus idea could the billet have been saw cut and had a sheet of the lighter metal inserted then forge welded together? Either partially cut and then heated or fully cut and upset?

JBG163 · 14th September 2022, 08:38 PM

The line is quite subtle is some area, i don't think there would be an inserted sheet of nickel or something.

The stress fracture could be possible but you can see the line cross the entire section of the blade. So i doubt it.

I also don't imagine a silver soldering, the result would not be like this.

If you check on the side of the twist, you can also see a line, resulting from a forge welding. Color and consistency are the same. That why i was thinking about a weld.

I will try to think about it tomorrow, with fresh idea

Quote:

Originally Posted by Interested Party

Agreed a forge weld of a broken blade would show a scarp joint. Here are two random theories: 1. Stress fracture that opened and was welded (closed) during the forging process? 2. Silver solder of a break?

Bonus idea could the billet have been saw cut and had a sheet of the lighter metal inserted then forge welded together? Either partially cut and then heated or fully cut and upset?

xasterix · 14th September 2022, 11:11 PM

I appreciate the brainstorming guys! This is the only blade I have with such a mysterious line.

kai · 15th September 2022, 09:39 AM

Thanks for the additional pics, Xas!

I'd bet on it being a quenching line: It's (unusually) sharp towards the thinner edges while it get's a bit blurry in the thicker middle section. This behaviour would be expected due to different cooling rates. With a high polish and an etchant allowing fine resolution, the crystal structures forming this line might become visible.

BTW, the steel of the pattern welding seems to behave very close to the steel utilized for the edges (central layer). Possibly a steel that responds very well to quenching. (Or the bladesmith perfectly hit the sweet spot for quenching this blade!)

Regards,
Kai

kai · 15th September 2022, 09:43 AM

While I agree with Julien and other contributors that this blade certainly ticks at least some boxes regarding assignment as an archaic blade, I believe this might be a really well-crafted example from the revival period, possibly originating from the 19th century. Just a feeling that I'd currently have a tough time to support!

I'd posit that we need to research these blades in much more detail before we can establish defendable stylistic and technological trends (and/or possibly cultural differences), deduce key features to allow constructing a reliable evolutionary tree/network, and possibly identify individual pieces & even assign age estimates. Given the dearth of documented early pieces which could be used for dating, age estimates are likely to stay relative (younger/older) rather than real periods.

Regards,
Kai

xasterix · 15th September 2022, 11:44 AM

Kai- thanks very much for your thorough metallurgical assessment and your gut-feel on age estimate!

Interestingly, you're the second person to posit that it may be a "revival" blade; a good friend of mine who's a museum curator had the same view. Compared to other archaic krises I've encountered- this kris has a pretty solid and non-flexible blade. It also has heft, unlike archaic krises which are usually light (sometimes ridiculously so).

I agree with your quench-line theory- that would explain why a bit of pattern in one of the sides still managed to spill over the line.

JBG163 · 15th September 2022, 12:04 PM

The best way to know would be to have it polished and etched. The difference of color would be blatant. I supposed earlier that it could be quench but, more test would be necessary to be perfectly sure.

Still, keeping it in his current state is also a good thing. Especially for datation. It's all a balance and up to you asterix.

My knowledge in Kriss isnt deep enough to assess a revival style. So i entirely relay on Kai for his datation

An impressive sword in any case

14th September 2022, 11:11 PM	#3
xasterix Member Join Date: Oct 2018 Posts: 674	I appreciate the brainstorming guys! This is the only blade I have with such a mysterious line.

15th September 2022, 09:39 AM	#4
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	Thanks for the additional pics, Xas! I'd bet on it being a quenching line: It's (unusually) sharp towards the thinner edges while it get's a bit blurry in the thicker middle section. This behaviour would be expected due to different cooling rates. With a high polish and an etchant allowing fine resolution, the crystal structures forming this line might become visible. BTW, the steel of the pattern welding seems to behave very close to the steel utilized for the edges (central layer). Possibly a steel that responds very well to quenching. (Or the bladesmith perfectly hit the sweet spot for quenching this blade!) Regards, Kai

15th September 2022, 09:43 AM	#5
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	While I agree with Julien and other contributors that this blade certainly ticks at least some boxes regarding assignment as an archaic blade, I believe this might be a really well-crafted example from the revival period, possibly originating from the 19th century. Just a feeling that I'd currently have a tough time to support! I'd posit that we need to research these blades in much more detail before we can establish defendable stylistic and technological trends (and/or possibly cultural differences), deduce key features to allow constructing a reliable evolutionary tree/network, and possibly identify individual pieces & even assign age estimates. Given the dearth of documented early pieces which could be used for dating, age estimates are likely to stay relative (younger/older) rather than real periods. Regards, Kai

15th September 2022, 11:44 AM	#6
xasterix Member Join Date: Oct 2018 Posts: 674	Kai- thanks very much for your thorough metallurgical assessment and your gut-feel on age estimate! Interestingly, you're the second person to posit that it may be a "revival" blade; a good friend of mine who's a museum curator had the same view. Compared to other archaic krises I've encountered- this kris has a pretty solid and non-flexible blade. It also has heft, unlike archaic krises which are usually light (sometimes ridiculously so). I agree with your quench-line theory- that would explain why a bit of pattern in one of the sides still managed to spill over the line.

15th September 2022, 12:04 PM	#7
JBG163 Member Join Date: Sep 2019 Location: France Posts: 209	The best way to know would be to have it polished and etched. The difference of color would be blatant. I supposed earlier that it could be quench but, more test would be necessary to be perfectly sure. Still, keeping it in his current state is also a good thing. Especially for datation. It's all a balance and up to you asterix. My knowledge in Kriss isnt deep enough to assess a revival style. So i entirely relay on Kai for his datation An impressive sword in any case