Paternosters on blades

Jim McDougall · 31st July 2022, 03:33 AM

Still searching for more on the 'pasternoster' question. No luck locating images of swords with configurations of dots pierced through blade or simply depressions hollowed out.

In the times of chivalry, the consciousness of religious piety and symbolism was of course profoundly known, and the sword in itself a symbol of this. The paternoster was a key element of this symbolism as well, and it should be noted that the term was used to denote a string of prayer beads in general, and did not apply any association with a particular type of devotion.

It seems then that this term as a simile relating to these beads pertained to any consecutive pattern resembling beads in this manner. While clearly not related to swords, this example uses the term thus,

In 1565 Queen Elizabeth I gave the Isle of Sark (one of the Channel Islands off Normandy) to Helier de Carteret on conditions including placement of 40 men there to defend from the French. When a ship of families from Jersey sent there approached, they were wrecked upon the Pierre de Lecq rocks and all perished, including many children.
In the many years after, passing fishermen would say prayers observing these rocks as they did so, to pray for the children lost.....these rocks then became known as the 'Paternosters' accordingly.

With sword blades, among the ideal circumstances is to have a lighter blade, and it seems that one notion was to pierce the blade with holes through. While it became apparent that this would compromise the strength of the blade, it does seem the practice remained in degree with some artistically or status oriented swords. The more effective manner of lightening was of course channels or fullers.

Whatever the case, it seems likely that in the rather dramatic manner of using the paternoster simile as with the rocks, holes in a blade might be perceived as having to do with prayers and invocations as with a rosary. This may well have remained in sense even with the hollowed designs with holes or patterned depressions.

fernando · 31st July 2022, 01:39 PM

Jim where did you get that picture; those are the ugliest rocks i have ever seen

..
Amazing, all sources i can find out there under the names rosary or paternoster never refer to sword blades decorations. I have tried Portuguese and Spanish (as i could) sources and found zero results.

Here from the Oxford Universal Dictionary

.

Interested Party · 31st July 2022, 03:58 PM

Interesting. I am looking forward to seeing some examples. I had one blade that was almost a candidate, it was a European blade that had spent time in Indonesia. Sadly, it had only 3 large holes and 4 small ones. I am not convinced they weren't added by an unscrupulous seller at some point. It seems that the dots typically would be in denominations of 10, 50, or 150 representing Psalms plus the gauds or large beads for a Paternostro. A Rosery can have several versions depending on the purpose ordered in "decades." I am attaching a link to a short summary on prayer beads I found that includes a small bibliography. Actually, quite topically enlightening and not linked to a commercial site that I can find.

http://www.paternoster-row.medievalscotland.org/

Jim McDougall · 31st July 2022, 07:50 PM

Yup Fernando, definitely not postcard material!!!

That is the point, there is no widespread presence of the paternoster term being used in sword nomenclature or terminology, in fact virtually none. It is only in the often unexpected material presented in Burton that this is presented as some sort of known practice or representation.

Interested party, thank you for your observations and good points. The presence of rapier blades with openwork panels in the blade center/fuller suggests that pierced blades were known in degree. These do not however qualify with reference to paternosters. I know there are examples out there with holes or dots, but have yet to find them.

Well noted that if intended to represent actual rosary beads, there would be significant numbers in those large denominations, but the simile comparing the holes is just that, a comparison in colloquial sense much as with the rocks.
To recite prayers accompanied by a physical object (bead or rock) is the intended note, not necessarily the number.

The objective here is to find blade examples with holes (as suggested by the authors I noted, often in transverse and vertical lines of holes. Also to find this term used in sword descriptions and/or referred to in any of the sword literature.

Interested Party · 31st July 2022, 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Interested party, thank you for your observations and good points. The presence of rapier blades with openwork panels in the blade center/fuller suggests that pierced blades were known in degree. These do not however qualify with reference to paternosters. I know there are examples out there with holes or dots, but have yet to find them.

Well noted that if intended to represent actual rosary beads, there would be significant numbers in those large denominations, but the simile comparing the holes is just that, a comparison in colloquial sense much as with the rocks.
To recite prayers accompanied by a physical object (bead or rock) is the intended note, not necessarily the number.

The objective here is to find blade examples with holes (as suggested by the authors I noted, often in transverse and vertical lines of holes. Also to find this term used in sword descriptions and/or referred to in any of the sword literature.

There doesn't have to be large numbers. 15 cycles of 10 prayers would give you 150 Paternosters representing the 150 Psalms popular before the Rosary. Kind of reminds me of a Tibetan prayer wheel in concept. Four decades of Ave Marias with 4 gauds would be a Rosary for the dead. Interesting topic as always and an appropriate topic for my Sunday morning coffee.

Jim McDougall · 31st July 2022, 10:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Interested Party

There doesn't have to be large numbers. 15 cycles of 10 prayers would give you 150 Paternosters representing the 150 Psalms popular before the Rosary. Kind of reminds me of a Tibetan prayer wheel in concept. Four decades of Ave Marias with 4 gauds would be a Rosary for the dead. Interesting topic as always and an appropriate topic for my Sunday morning coffee.

Thank you for explaining that further, as clearly I am far from well versed in this area and it helps to understand the relative associations of numbers in these matters. Good note on the Tibetan prayer wheel as well, something I have heard of but honestly never thought much on how they were used.

Jim McDougall · 1st August 2022, 09:24 PM

The term (= seek and ye shall find) is from the mysterious inscription on the green flag (of Florentine soldiers defending Siena in the Battle of Marciano) in the fresco by Vasari.

I found this "The Paternoster Blade" by Chris Laning, in the Paternoster journal Jan. 8, 2008, in which this 'curiosity' which has been piqued in me seems to have affected others as well.
It is noted as a reference in Stone's huge compendium of 1934 describing the paternoster on sword blade phenomenon, and citing Burton (as I have noted) 1884, p.136 as a source.

The author here describes the fallibility of Victorian scholarship and also suggests that Burton, seeming to be the key source to this notion, likely saw this referred to and elaborated accordingly. While the practice of using the blade decoration as described is unlikely , here another Victorian myth was born.

31st July 2022, 03:33 AM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,459	Still searching for more on the 'pasternoster' question. No luck locating images of swords with configurations of dots pierced through blade or simply depressions hollowed out. In the times of chivalry, the consciousness of religious piety and symbolism was of course profoundly known, and the sword in itself a symbol of this. The paternoster was a key element of this symbolism as well, and it should be noted that the term was used to denote a string of prayer beads in general, and did not apply any association with a particular type of devotion. It seems then that this term as a simile relating to these beads pertained to any consecutive pattern resembling beads in this manner. While clearly not related to swords, this example uses the term thus, In 1565 Queen Elizabeth I gave the Isle of Sark (one of the Channel Islands off Normandy) to Helier de Carteret on conditions including placement of 40 men there to defend from the French. When a ship of families from Jersey sent there approached, they were wrecked upon the Pierre de Lecq rocks and all perished, including many children. In the many years after, passing fishermen would say prayers observing these rocks as they did so, to pray for the children lost.....these rocks then became known as the 'Paternosters' accordingly. With sword blades, among the ideal circumstances is to have a lighter blade, and it seems that one notion was to pierce the blade with holes through. While it became apparent that this would compromise the strength of the blade, it does seem the practice remained in degree with some artistically or status oriented swords. The more effective manner of lightening was of course channels or fullers. Whatever the case, it seems likely that in the rather dramatic manner of using the paternoster simile as with the rocks, holes in a blade might be perceived as having to do with prayers and invocations as with a rosary. This may well have remained in sense even with the hollowed designs with holes or patterned depressions. Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 31st July 2022 at 09:21 AM.

31st July 2022, 01:39 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Jim where did you get that picture; those are the ugliest rocks i have ever seen .. Amazing, all sources i can find out there under the names rosary or paternoster never refer to sword blades decorations. I have tried Portuguese and Spanish (as i could) sources and found zero results. Here from the Oxford Universal Dictionary . Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 31st July 2022 at 03:59 PM.

31st July 2022, 03:58 PM	#3
Interested Party Member Join Date: Dec 2019 Location: Eastern Sierra Posts: 505	Interesting. I am looking forward to seeing some examples. I had one blade that was almost a candidate, it was a European blade that had spent time in Indonesia. Sadly, it had only 3 large holes and 4 small ones. I am not convinced they weren't added by an unscrupulous seller at some point. It seems that the dots typically would be in denominations of 10, 50, or 150 representing Psalms plus the gauds or large beads for a Paternostro. A Rosery can have several versions depending on the purpose ordered in "decades." I am attaching a link to a short summary on prayer beads I found that includes a small bibliography. Actually, quite topically enlightening and not linked to a commercial site that I can find. http://www.paternoster-row.medievalscotland.org/

31st July 2022, 07:50 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,459	Yup Fernando, definitely not postcard material!!! That is the point, there is no widespread presence of the paternoster term being used in sword nomenclature or terminology, in fact virtually none. It is only in the often unexpected material presented in Burton that this is presented as some sort of known practice or representation. Interested party, thank you for your observations and good points. The presence of rapier blades with openwork panels in the blade center/fuller suggests that pierced blades were known in degree. These do not however qualify with reference to paternosters. I know there are examples out there with holes or dots, but have yet to find them. Well noted that if intended to represent actual rosary beads, there would be significant numbers in those large denominations, but the simile comparing the holes is just that, a comparison in colloquial sense much as with the rocks. To recite prayers accompanied by a physical object (bead or rock) is the intended note, not necessarily the number. The objective here is to find blade examples with holes (as suggested by the authors I noted, often in transverse and vertical lines of holes. Also to find this term used in sword descriptions and/or referred to in any of the sword literature.