Deccan tulwar

[Interested Party]

Originally Posted by Ren Ren

Very little is known about the Mongolian weapons traditions of the 14th-16th centuries. But thanks to the excellent research of Donald LaRocca, we know that the conservative traditions of Tibet have preserved much of the common heritage of the Mongols, Tibetans, Chinese and Manchus.
Therefore, I once again looked at the historical weapons of Tibet and, in order not to waste more words, I have prepared for you a small overview of the most characteristic items.

Interesting discussion gentlemen. I find cross cultural influence and exchange of technology, ideas, and genes to be one of the most fascinating subjects ever.

Ren Ren, the Tibetan swords you show seem to have a Kala on them? Would you say that is a Tibetan addition that fits conveniently into the space or is it an implied motif on the Chinese and Indian examples also? I.e. time and death devouring all. The visors of the Mongolian helmets state this as well or just share a silhouette? Seeing that pattern repeat was a very good catch.

Mercenary, Where is the example in post #41 from?

[Mercenary]

Originally Posted by Interested Party

Mercenary, Where is the example in post #41 from?

The State Hermitage Museum (Petersburg, Russia)
Iran, XV-XVI, when Chinese motifs were popular in the art of the Timurid state and the early Safavids. At a later time, the heads of dragons and birds were removed.

inscription: "From the desire to have a sun-like dagger, every bone in my body side became a dagger".

[Interested Party]

Originally Posted by Mercenary

The State Hermitage Museum (Petersburg, Russia)
Iran, XV-XVI, when Chinese motifs were popular in the art of the Timurid state and the early Safavids. At a later time, the heads of dragons and birds were removed.

inscription: "From the desire to have a sun-like dagger, every bone in my body side became a dagger".

Thank you. I am glad to see my eyes didn't lie. It looked like Chinese motifs on an Iranian or Caucasian blade. decorated with Turkish style turquoises, and eared (or is that an optical illusion?). For some reason it made me think of the sword of Charlemagne". To which other than hybridization this dagger has nothing to do with. I then picked up Rivkin's "History of the Eastern Sword" and skimmed a few a few chapters covering the concept of transmission of styles across Asia and Europe. Which does seem related to our current topic, but I did not find an appropriate quote.

So, do you think it was made for Shiites and then owned by Sunnis who removed the animals heads?

[ariel]

Don’t we exaggerate the anti-iconic customs of Shia and Sunni?

Both Turkish Sultans and Persian Shahs invited European artists to have their portrais painted , Iranians had their khanjars with ivory handles carved with human figures, Sunni Mughals had books with rich collections of miniatures showing multiple personalities, Deccani Sultans had the same , Shia Tipu Sultan had a life-size statue of a tiger devouring a Brit… etc.
And I am not talking miniatures depicting copulating couples in great detail ( talk about modesty):-)

Moreover, any comparison between religious anti-iconic fervor of Sunni vs. Shia doesn’t seem to hold water.

Anti-iconism was and still is very strong only in the Salafi and Wahhabi communities. But streets of Karachi and Teheran are covered in gigantic portraits of their political and religious leaders ( never been in either, thank G-d, just saw Internet photos)

[Ren Ren]

Originally Posted by Interested Party

Ren Ren, the Tibetan swords you show seem to have a Kala on them? Would you say that is a Tibetan addition that fits conveniently into the space or is it an implied motif on the Chinese and Indian examples also? I.e. time and death devouring all.

Donald LaRocca uses the Tibetan name "tsi pa ta" in his book, which is exactly the same as the Sanskrit "kirttimukha". I do not know if the kirttimukha mask is used in the decoration of Indian weapons. China has its own symbol - the mask of Tao Tie 饕餮 (you can translate it as "Terrible Glutton"). This is a very ancient symbol, it has been known since at least 1300 BC. Later, it partially united with the kirttimukha symbol, which brought Buddhism from India.

Originally Posted by Interested Party

The visors of the Mongolian helmets state this as well or just share a silhouette? Seeing that pattern repeat was a very good catch.

I suppose that if you wish, you can find parallels between the silhouette of the visor of the Mongolian helmets and Buddhist religious objects, such as the headdresses of monks and priests. But this is hardly connected directly with the symbol tsi pa ta/kirttimukha.