The Espada Ancha Myth

midelburgo · 1st July 2022, 03:04 PM

These 2 are real XVIIIth century three fullered blades from Spanish 1728 models. Three fullered blades although they exist, are a minority of 1728 blades. Most are non fullered or single fullered.

midelburgo · 1st July 2022, 03:22 PM

So.

What is this?
A)Colonial period using remounted Spanish cavalry blade.

B)Republican period using Solingen exported 1830-1850 blades imitating the above.

C) Older hilt with a Solingen newer blade.

midelburgo · 1st July 2022, 03:53 PM

Now lets give a look to the two caps grips.
These are common both in swords as in knifes. They are not limited to colonial, they were everywhere in the Spanish world up to XXth century.

Jim McDougall · 1st July 2022, 11:02 PM

Thank you so much!!These are excellent observations and insights, and all very well placed. With the 'Spanish motto' blades, there has long been a 'back and forth' on whether these were Solingen or indeed Toledo blades as it seems most people in the colonies assumed.
In one narrative, one caballero of Alta California suggested, 'every man had a Toledo bladed sword'. As most of the 'bilbo' swords and dragoon blades in three bar hilts had the motto, of course it implied these were made in Toledo.

However, I had forgotten about the Knecht purveyor, who, as noted in Wallace Collection (Mann. 1962) indeed handled blades with the Spanish motto.
There does seem to be some variation in these, both in fuller pattern and lettering etc. so perhaps there may have been some production in Spain. The Toledo manufactory opened in late 1760s and this may have accounted for some of these.

There were large quantities of these dragoon blades in New Spain which had been stockpiled long before the 'supply chain' termination after the 1810 insurrections.

It is indeed pretty hard to attach the Spanish colonial designation on many of these kinds of swords, there were rather rugged in character as made in rural areas in Spain on occasion. It would seem that ersatz examples were made in many cases outside the 'regulation' specification, and using components and materials available. That to me is one of the most fascinating aspects in this field of collecting.

Jim McDougall · 8th July 2024, 12:21 AM

I wanted to add here a PDF of the article written last year for the Swedish Arms Society, and published in their centennial yearbook, kindly edited for presentation here by Lee Jones. This was a very interesting thread with some excellent discourse with the entries by Midelburgo, Fernando, Keith and Glen and brought together many valuable insights on these Spanish colonial weapons.

I hope this article will add to the material extant on the espada ancha, and that those of you with interest in this topic will find it of interest. I look forward to any comments, observations, suggestions and of course, any examples that might add to this study.

kronckew · 8th July 2024, 05:39 PM

I've always thought of this one as my espada ancha:

Jim McDougall · 8th July 2024, 06:52 PM

Hey Wayne, thank you for responding!
Thats a nice example, and in that configuration it could well be considered one, after all these utility oriented swords (machete) were found in countless variations. In Levine (1985) these kinds of ring over the cross quillon and similar type grip are noted as 'Central American dirks'. Here that type hilt is mounted with a machete type blade, and these were well known throughout the Spanish Main through the 19th c.

Great scabbard, and of the excellent leather work typically found in Mexico through the 19th c. as well.

1st July 2022, 03:04 PM	#1
midelburgo Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 264	These 2 are real XVIIIth century three fullered blades from Spanish 1728 models. Three fullered blades although they exist, are a minority of 1728 blades. Most are non fullered or single fullered. Attached Images Last edited by midelburgo; 1st July 2022 at 03:14 PM.

1st July 2022, 03:22 PM	#2
midelburgo Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 264	So. What is this? A)Colonial period using remounted Spanish cavalry blade. B)Republican period using Solingen exported 1830-1850 blades imitating the above. C) Older hilt with a Solingen newer blade. Attached Images

1st July 2022, 03:53 PM	#3
midelburgo Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 264	Now lets give a look to the two caps grips. These are common both in swords as in knifes. They are not limited to colonial, they were everywhere in the Spanish world up to XXth century. Attached Images Last edited by midelburgo; 1st July 2022 at 04:10 PM.

8th July 2024, 05:39 PM	#6
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,224	I've always thought of this one as my espada ancha: Attached Images

1st July 2022, 11:02 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Thank you so much!!These are excellent observations and insights, and all very well placed. With the 'Spanish motto' blades, there has long been a 'back and forth' on whether these were Solingen or indeed Toledo blades as it seems most people in the colonies assumed. In one narrative, one caballero of Alta California suggested, 'every man had a Toledo bladed sword'. As most of the 'bilbo' swords and dragoon blades in three bar hilts had the motto, of course it implied these were made in Toledo. However, I had forgotten about the Knecht purveyor, who, as noted in Wallace Collection (Mann. 1962) indeed handled blades with the Spanish motto. There does seem to be some variation in these, both in fuller pattern and lettering etc. so perhaps there may have been some production in Spain. The Toledo manufactory opened in late 1760s and this may have accounted for some of these. There were large quantities of these dragoon blades in New Spain which had been stockpiled long before the 'supply chain' termination after the 1810 insurrections. It is indeed pretty hard to attach the Spanish colonial designation on many of these kinds of swords, there were rather rugged in character as made in rural areas in Spain on occasion. It would seem that ersatz examples were made in many cases outside the 'regulation' specification, and using components and materials available. That to me is one of the most fascinating aspects in this field of collecting.

8th July 2024, 06:52 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Hey Wayne, thank you for responding! Thats a nice example, and in that configuration it could well be considered one, after all these utility oriented swords (machete) were found in countless variations. In Levine (1985) these kinds of ring over the cross quillon and similar type grip are noted as 'Central American dirks'. Here that type hilt is mounted with a machete type blade, and these were well known throughout the Spanish Main through the 19th c. Great scabbard, and of the excellent leather work typically found in Mexico through the 19th c. as well.