Deccan tulwar

[werecow]

I haven't seen this style of hilt with a tulwar-style disc pommel before. I've seen something similar on a few pistol grips, though; see attached (listed as "North India, 19th century").

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by werecow

I haven't seen this style of hilt with a tulwar-style disc pommel before. I've seen something similar on a few pistol grips, though; see attached (listed as "North India, 19th century").

Conversely,
Here is a Chinese sword with 'parrot head' style hilt in jade,;late 18th c. The Qianlong emperor (1735-1796) had an affinity for 'foreign' styling etc.

[Mercenary]

There was no direct influence of Chinese culture to Indian one in the 16th century, only indirectly through Iran and Central Asia. If something of Chinese appeared in the Deccan, it first had to appeared in Iran.
In the 18th century, jade hilts were sent from India to China as court gifts. In China also tried to copy them, but such items were very different from the Indian originals.

[Mercenary]

The original silver decorations and the hilt itself are quite old and it was made by the hand of an induist master, not a muslim one. Decorations and inscriptions in gold are applied to the finished handle, and in a good way an examination is needed, whether the style of the inscription corresponds to the 16th century. And the subject as a whole needs provenance.
In any case, inlay-work would be much more appropriate, than false damascening.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Mercenary

There was no direct influence of Chinese culture to Indian one in the 16th century, only indirectly through Iran and Central Asia. If something of Chinese appeared in the Deccan, it first had to appeared in Iran.
In the 18th century, jade hilts were sent from India to China as court gifts. In China also tried to copy them, but such items were very different from the Indian originals.

Well noted, the 'filters' I mentioned indeed included Iran and Central Asia, and the diffusion of these influences in either direction were well traveled via 'the Silk Road'.
Also well noted on the 'court gifts' aspect, which I had not thought of. It would seem many variant sword types with 'hybrid' features reflecting other culturally oriented weapons in the diplomatic gift genre account for many of these anomalies. This makes them extremely interesting of course, and understandably desirable for serious collectors.

[Mercenary]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Well noted, the 'filters' I mentioned indeed included Iran and Central Asia, and the diffusion of these influences in either direction were well traveled via 'the Silk Road'.

Exactly! And "the Porcelain Road" in XII-XV century.

[ariel]

That's strange...
Are we to believe that Chinese influences jumped over India (despite having direct border and multiple maritime exploits) to Iran and only then,- from Iran, and only in the XVI century,- reached India?
First 4 voyages of Zheng He ( a born Muslim from Yunnan prominent family) in the beginning of XV century involved visits of his enormous trade and gifts fleet to India.

[Mercenary]

1. Active bilateral contacts in the 18th century did not lead to the appearance of Chinese weapons in India or imitation of them , but very doubtful sporadic contacts in the 15-16th century did it?
What other Chinese artifacts at that time did not just end up in India, but influenced traditional culture and were borrowed as phenomenon?
2. The humanitarian visits of the fleet in the 15th century could not yet lead to a change in the cultural or any other landscape.
The Chinese Buddhist monks who traveled through India in the 5th-7th centuries would not be a much worse example.
3. Comparison of the guard on an Indian saber with the guard on a straight Chinese sword, the shape and decor of which have completely different semantic connotations besides the fact that Chinese sabers had completely different guards? Seriously?

It just seems from a postmodernist point of view that someone can sail somewhere and sell something there and everything will change at once. It is impossible to apply such an approach to the historical past and especially to traditional societies.

[Ren Ren]

Originally Posted by ariel

First 4 voyages of Zheng He ( a born Muslim from Yunnan prominent family) in the beginning of XV century involved visits of his enormous trade and gifts fleet to India.

The advances in maritime archeology over the past 20 years have made speculation about Zheng He's fleet irrelevant. No weapons for trade or gifts were found on Chinese ships. It was found on Japanese ships, but they did not reach the coast of India.
Cross-cultural influence took place in other ways. This was especially true in the 14-16 centuries.

[Ren Ren]

Originally Posted by Mercenary

In the 18th century, jade hilts were sent from India to China as court gifts. In China also tried to copy them, but such items were very different from the Indian originals.

As a result of the war of 1791-92, Nepal became a vassal of China and was obliged to pay an annual tribute. Trophies captured in Nepal form an important part of the Qianlong Emperor's collection. It also includes Indian-made items.