Your thoughts on this rapier?

[Merenti]

To me this is a nice authentic rapier circa 1630-1650. Iron cutting was popularly done in Italy (Milan). I saw it too, but it's in poor condition.

[fernando]

Why not Spanish; by one of those Toledo smiths ... like PEDRO DEL MONTE .

[werecow]

Originally Posted by Merenti

To me this is a nice authentic rapier circa 1630-1650. Iron cutting was popularly done in Italy (Milan). I saw it too, but it's in poor condition.

True, but the condition isn't terrible, and "a bit rusty" is probably the only kind I can afford for this kind of sword. And apparently not even that (I was not all that close)! }|:oP

Originally Posted by fernando

Why not Spanish; by one of those Toledo smiths ... like PEDRO DEL MONTE :o.

I thought it might be a reference to Pedro del Monte or even Pedro Hernandez, but there is no last name it seems, or at least I can't make it out. I can't make heads or tails of the other side. Those oval (eye?) shapes do look a little more familiar although I can't remember where I've seen them before - the closest ones were Italian marks I found on a thread on this forum (which I can't seem to find any more now), but they have another line of "lashes" surrounding the "eye".

[fernando]

Originally Posted by werecow

... I thought it might be a reference to Pedro del Monte or even Pedro Hernandez, but there is no last name it seems,

There should be some written stuff in both sides ... as usual. Something like PEDRO DEL in one side and MONTE EN TOLEDO in the other.
But i am only guessing on the name, of course.

[werecow]

Originally Posted by fernando

There should be some written stuff in both sides ... as usual. Something like PEDRO DEL in one side and MONTE EN TOLEDO in the other.
But i am only guessing on the name, of course.

There is writing there (3rd picture) but all I've been able to make out is G R ET (or I suppose with a bit of imagination it could be a degraded "FECIT") and I'm not really sure about any of it.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by werecow

There is writing there (3rd picture) but all I've been able to make out is G R ET (or I suppose with a bit of imagination it could be a degraded "FECIT") and I'm not really sure about any of it.

So ... looking better at the 3rd picture, it should read GARAETA, a Basque smith name mispelled by Palomares as Lagaretea.
"Este hecho se produce especialmente en el caso de los de raiz vasca, como Pedro Lagaretea por Pedro de Garaeta"
He is reported to have worked both in Bilbao and Toledo.


.

[cornelistromp]

What a coincidence, Iam from Leiden and I was bidding on this rapier yesterday afternoon, bought a hunting sword so we can combine shipping :-)
I stopped at a certain point because I was not sure if there was a crack at the quilon near the ricasso block, It may be ok, it was not clear on the photos

nevertheless concrats the rapier is beautiful, early and rare.


The Rapier is Italian 1540-1560, Norman Type 32, if you have the book have a look at plate 21. there are similar examples in the Met , the wallace collection and stibbert museum.


@ Fernando yes I came also to PEDRO DEL.........AGARETA

best,
jasper

[Merenti]

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

What a coincidence, Iam from Leiden and I was bidding on this rapier yesterday afternoon, bought a hunting sword so we can combine shipping :-)
I stopped at a certain point because I was not sure if there was a crack at the quilon near the ricasso block, It may be ok, it was not clear on the photos

nevertheless concrats the rapier is beautiful, early and rare.


The Rapier is Italian 1540-1560, Norman Type 32, if you have the book have a look at plate 21. there are similar examples in the Met , the wallace collection and stibbert museum.


@ Fernando yes I came also to PEDRO DEL.........AGARETA

best,
jasper

what is the name of the book?

[werecow]

Originally Posted by fernando

So ... looking better at the 3rd picture, it should read GARAETA, a Basque smith name mispelled by Palomares as Lagaretea.
"Este hecho se produce especialmente en el caso de los de raiz vasca, como Pedro Lagaretea por Pedro de Garaeta"
He is reported to have worked both in Bilbao and Toledo.

Ah, so there's a third Pedro! The plot thickens. I had heard of the other two before but not this one.

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

What a coincidence, Iam from Leiden and I was bidding on this rapier yesterday afternoon, bought a hunting sword so we can combine shipping :-)
I stopped at a certain point because I was not sure if there was a crack at the quilon near the ricasso block, It may be ok, it was not clear on the photos

nevertheless concrats the rapier is beautiful, early and rare.


The Rapier is Italian 1540-1560, Norman Type 32, if you have the book have a look at plate 21. there are similar examples in the Met , the wallace collection and stibbert museum.


@ Fernando yes I came also to PEDRO DEL.........AGARETA

Ha! I knew you were Dutch from lurking on the forums for a while, but I had no idea you were from Leiden. Small world/country!

Thanks for the reference, that's a pretty close one, as is the one in the Norman book. Which book is the one you posted the screenshot from?

But re: Shipping; alas, as noted I did not get the sword, I just wanted to see if I was on the right track with my thinking and to learn a bit more about the engravings / markings. The world of renaissance rapier collecting is a bit daunting for a novice collector so it's good to be able to check whether I'm not just chasing obvious fakes (I half-expected someone here to raise their hand and say something to the effect of "those proportions are completely wrong and it's an antiqued €25 Marto wallhanger from the early 2000s" ). At least this may give me a small amount of confidence the next time around.

[ulfberth]

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

What a coincidence, Iam from Leiden and I was bidding on this rapier yesterday afternoon, bought a hunting sword so we can combine shipping :-)
I stopped at a certain point because I was not sure if there was a crack at the quilon near the ricasso block, It may be ok, it was not clear on the photos

nevertheless concrats the rapier is beautiful, early and rare.


The Rapier is Italian 1540-1560, Norman Type 32, if you have the book have a look at plate 21. there are similar examples in the Met , the wallace collection and stibbert museum.


@ Fernando yes I came also to PEDRO DEL.........AGARETA

best,
jasper

It is indeed mid 16th c and very rare as it is, its even more rare to find it in a condition like this uncleaned and unmolested . For rapiers or swords this rare the condition matters less than items you can find in better condition.
I mean if one would decide to wait untill a better one come's along that is also for sale and all original like this one , it could be you would need to wait longer than the swords age itself.
kind regards
Ulfberth

[Victrix]

Originally Posted by fernando

There should be some written stuff in both sides ... as usual. Something like PEDRO DEL in one side and MONTE EN TOLEDO in the other.
But i am only guessing on the name, of course.

[Philip]

Originally Posted by werecow

True, but the condition isn't terrible, and "a bit rusty" is probably the only kind I can afford for this kind of sword. And apparently not even that (I was not all that close)! }|P

I agree, the condition isn't all that bad, it would have benefited from a reasonable amount of cleaning and ended up looking a lot better than when it left the auction house. The trick is to stop the active corrosion and remove accumulated dirt, while retaining as much of the existing patina as you can. A slow and conservative approach is far better than fast and aggressive, a lot of collectors use inappropriate methods and ruin pieces with overcleaning.