Arabic....North African curved dagger...comments / help

katana · 8th June 2006, 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ErnestoJuan

According to Tirri (page 44) , these daggers originate from Algiers.

So is there the possibility that this is not a tourist ( or TWTFP, thanks Manolo for the clue in your post

) dagger. ?
ErnestoJuan, could you please post any other information you may have, thankyou

ErnestoJuan · 8th June 2006, 10:41 PM

Well, the grand master of all oriental arms describes a similar item as:

" A very decorative presentation “NIMCHA” knife / dagger from Algier. It has a 16 inches single edge blade of deep curvature. The blade is engraved in a typical design, inlaid with brass and filed on the spine. The hilt and the scabbard are made of wood and entirely carved in a typica; Algerian design. Total length 25 ½ inches. Very good condition. It is not a fighting weapon but a very decorative example and of good workmanship. It is a nice addition to a collection of Oriental Weapon / art, at a very attractive price."

here is the url for piccies:

http://www.oriental-arms.co.il/item.php?id=1506

katana · 8th June 2006, 11:07 PM

Other than the longer blade, they are indeed very similar, thankyou for the link

ErnestoJuan · 8th June 2006, 11:27 PM

My pleasure.

VANDOO · 9th June 2006, 02:24 AM

THE OLDER EXAMPLES OF THESE ARE QUITE NICE AND THE INLAYING OF METAL INTO THE HANDLE AND SCABBARD AS WELL AS THE INLAYED TWISTED WIRE IN THE BLADES IS UNIQUE. PERHAPS THEY DID HAVE A FUNCTION OTHER THAN CEREMONY IN THE PAST AS I HAVE SEEN THEM IN PICTURES OF VERY OLD COLLECTIONS. THE NEWER ONES WITH THE PLASTIC IMITATION CORAL INLAY ARE SHOWY BUT THE WORKMANSHIP IS INFERIOR TO THE OLDER ONES.

ariel · 9th June 2006, 04:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ErnestoJuan

Well, the grand master of all oriental arms describes a similar item as:

" A very decorative presentation “NIMCHA” knife / dagger from Algier. It has a 16 inches single edge blade of deep curvature. The blade is engraved in a typical design, inlaid with brass and filed on the spine. The hilt and the scabbard are made of wood and entirely carved in a typica; Algerian design. Total length 25 ½ inches. Very good condition. It is not a fighting weapon but a very decorative example and of good workmanship. It is a nice addition to a collection of Oriental Weapon / art, at a very attractive price."

here is the url for piccies:

http://www.oriental-arms.co.il/item.php?id=1506

This one has a blade that is very much "flyssa"-like. Algiers comes to mind right away.

katana · 9th June 2006, 06:12 PM

I've been send further photos by the seller, I've tried to make them large enough so that the detail is easier to see, perhaps these could help to decide whether this is a tourist piece or something a little better

.
Opinions gentlemen please........ thanks

Emanuel · 9th June 2006, 10:01 PM

Katana,

On these newer pics the blade looks considerably thicker than my example, or is it just an impression due to the large pic size? If it is indeed thick and has a distal taper than my guess is it's a functional blade. On the last picture it almost looks like it has a false edge as well.

Ernesto, you are right that shulas are different, but other than shula and possibly the small flyssa I don't know of any maghrib weapon similar to these "nimcha" that could have influenced the appearance of its blade.
-attaching my shula for comparison-

galvano · 9th June 2006, 11:00 PM

There is the Moroccan nimcha.
It is a long sword.
galvano

Emanuel · 9th June 2006, 11:07 PM

Yes Galvano, but that is for the hilt, and I was talking about the blade

The ceremonial nimchas are called that just because of the characteristic hilt I think, but the blade type is wholly different and it's only similar to the shula and flyssa (as far as I know, which is little).
I am planning a trip to Algeria in about a year or so, and I will definitely pass through Morocco and have a look at the many weapons they have...
Emanuel

-oh yes! there is the koummiya, but then the blade is quite different, is used differently and it doesn't bear incised decorations-

Flavio · 9th June 2006, 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by galvano

There is the Moroccan nimcha.
It is a long sword.
galvano

A very nice nimcha, Galvano

katana · 10th June 2006, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manolo

Katana,

On these newer pics the blade looks considerably thicker than my example, or is it just an impression due to the large pic size? If it is indeed thick and has a distal taper than my guess is it's a functional blade. On the last picture it almost looks like it has a false edge as well.-

Manolo, what an interesting Nimcha.
I have posted two more pic's of the blade, IMHO I think you are right there is a false edge. Scaling the blade thickness with the carved pattern of the scabbard I think the blade is thicker.

I think, taking measurements from the photos and scaling them up I believe the blade spine is approx. 4 mm and seems to have distal taper.

See what you think

Emanuel · 11th June 2006, 12:34 AM

Hello Katana,
I would think that a 4mm blade can be useful in a fight, but then again I know very little about it. Your nimcha is definitely not a toy like mine, but I wonder how it would be used. Does one stab or slash with it? And what effect do the incisions on the spine have on cutting? How does it feel in-hand? Is the large hilt helpful or a nuisance? Mine is ridiculously large and useless, but yours may be functional.
Let's say it is the old, genuine ceremonial/wedding nimcha like VANDOO says, and leave it at that, because I really have no idea if you can fight with it or not

I'll keep my eye out for any more info on these daggers, but I think yours is a pretty good example.
Emanuel

9th June 2006, 06:12 PM	#7
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	I've been send further photos by the seller, I've tried to make them large enough so that the detail is easier to see, perhaps these could help to decide whether this is a tourist piece or something a little better . Opinions gentlemen please........ thanks Attached Images Last edited by katana; 9th June 2006 at 06:27 PM.

9th June 2006, 10:01 PM	#8
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Katana, On these newer pics the blade looks considerably thicker than my example, or is it just an impression due to the large pic size? If it is indeed thick and has a distal taper than my guess is it's a functional blade. On the last picture it almost looks like it has a false edge as well. Ernesto, you are right that shulas are different, but other than shula and possibly the small flyssa I don't know of any maghrib weapon similar to these "nimcha" that could have influenced the appearance of its blade. -attaching my shula for comparison- Attached Images

9th June 2006, 11:00 PM	#9
galvano Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 178	hi all There is the Moroccan nimcha. It is a long sword. galvano Attached Images

9th June 2006, 11:07 PM	#10
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Always wanted one of those sabres...beautiful!! Yes Galvano, but that is for the hilt, and I was talking about the blade The ceremonial nimchas are called that just because of the characteristic hilt I think, but the blade type is wholly different and it's only similar to the shula and flyssa (as far as I know, which is little). I am planning a trip to Algeria in about a year or so, and I will definitely pass through Morocco and have a look at the many weapons they have... Emanuel -oh yes! there is the koummiya, but then the blade is quite different, is used differently and it doesn't bear incised decorations-

8th June 2006, 10:41 PM	#2
ErnestoJuan Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Europa Posts: 60	Well, the grand master of all oriental arms describes a similar item as: " A very decorative presentation “NIMCHA” knife / dagger from Algier. It has a 16 inches single edge blade of deep curvature. The blade is engraved in a typical design, inlaid with brass and filed on the spine. The hilt and the scabbard are made of wood and entirely carved in a typica; Algerian design. Total length 25 ½ inches. Very good condition. It is not a fighting weapon but a very decorative example and of good workmanship. It is a nice addition to a collection of Oriental Weapon / art, at a very attractive price." here is the url for piccies: http://www.oriental-arms.co.il/item.php?id=1506

8th June 2006, 11:07 PM	#3
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Other than the longer blade, they are indeed very similar, thankyou for the link

8th June 2006, 11:27 PM	#4
ErnestoJuan Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Europa Posts: 60	My pleasure.

9th June 2006, 02:24 AM	#5
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THE OLDER EXAMPLES OF THESE ARE QUITE NICE AND THE INLAYING OF METAL INTO THE HANDLE AND SCABBARD AS WELL AS THE INLAYED TWISTED WIRE IN THE BLADES IS UNIQUE. PERHAPS THEY DID HAVE A FUNCTION OTHER THAN CEREMONY IN THE PAST AS I HAVE SEEN THEM IN PICTURES OF VERY OLD COLLECTIONS. THE NEWER ONES WITH THE PLASTIC IMITATION CORAL INLAY ARE SHOWY BUT THE WORKMANSHIP IS INFERIOR TO THE OLDER ONES.

11th June 2006, 12:34 AM	#13
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hello Katana, I would think that a 4mm blade can be useful in a fight, but then again I know very little about it. Your nimcha is definitely not a toy like mine, but I wonder how it would be used. Does one stab or slash with it? And what effect do the incisions on the spine have on cutting? How does it feel in-hand? Is the large hilt helpful or a nuisance? Mine is ridiculously large and useless, but yours may be functional. Let's say it is the old, genuine ceremonial/wedding nimcha like VANDOO says, and leave it at that, because I really have no idea if you can fight with it or not I'll keep my eye out for any more info on these daggers, but I think yours is a pretty good example. Emanuel