Saifs

Battara · 9th January 2022, 07:27 PM

Here is my saif. It was probably made in Hyderabad India and for the Yemeni market.

dakary · 9th January 2022, 08:07 PM

I do have to add that those Yemini hilts and pommels are really attractive to me too. I think Yemini arms are really nice. I like their jambiyas also. I tried to find one when I was in the Gulf but I just didn't have an eye that would allow me to pick out something worth getting and I wimped out. I probably should have just taken a plunge and gotten something.

ariel · 10th January 2022, 03:01 AM

sorry

dakary · 11th January 2022, 07:51 PM

Battara, that is not an antique, is it? If it isn't, could share where you acquired it from? Thanks!

Battara · 12th January 2022, 12:06 AM

Oh it is antique and even has a pattern welded blade.

Got it in an online auction.

dakary · 1st February 2022, 07:15 PM

I have another set of related questions (although I am still looking for a good production arab/syrian/persian shamshir/saif and would appreciate any help with that, although there doesn't seem any forthcoming...).

I noticed some S shaped guards on some antiques while I was in the Gulf. They seem to be primarily on Turkish shamshirs though. Was this decorative, or functional? When did they decide to do this (if not from the beginning)? Why is it rarer than straight guards?

Thanks!

ariel · 13th February 2022, 06:45 PM

S-shaped guard is a feature of regulation Ottoman swords from the second half of 19 century or later. They “borrowed” it from the European sabers as a part of “europeanizing” their military. The same was true about Persia.
Their relative rarity is likely explained by the relaively short time span for the use of bladed weapons.

Tulwar, shamshir, kilij, saif, all of them are “sword”, but in different languages.
How to call swords with a mix of different features?
That depends: Russian ( and, I guess, some other) schools would put emphasis
on the blade. Indeed, it is the working part of any sword. Polish school would emphasize the handle: it defines the matter of wielding the weapon.
Russian historians of weapons would call any sword, with any handle, but with a Persian blade a shamshir.
Polish ones would call a sword with a Persian blade and an Indian handle a tulwar, with a Turkish one a kilij and with an Arabic one a saif.

Intriguingly, a straight indian sword with a firangi or khanda blade but with a tulwar handle would be called a tulwar, but same blades with a basket handle would be firangi and khanda.

I do not think we can be categorical. It is a matter of local tradition and who are we to insist the locals are dead wrong and insist on our clearly european point of view ?

9th January 2022, 07:27 PM	#1
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,323	Here is my saif. It was probably made in Hyderabad India and for the Yemeni market. Attached Images

10th January 2022, 03:01 AM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	sorry Last edited by ariel; 10th January 2022 at 06:07 AM. Reason: Wrong address.

13th February 2022, 06:45 PM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	S-shaped guard is a feature of regulation Ottoman swords from the second half of 19 century or later. They “borrowed” it from the European sabers as a part of “europeanizing” their military. The same was true about Persia. Their relative rarity is likely explained by the relaively short time span for the use of bladed weapons. Tulwar, shamshir, kilij, saif, all of them are “sword”, but in different languages. How to call swords with a mix of different features? That depends: Russian ( and, I guess, some other) schools would put emphasis on the blade. Indeed, it is the working part of any sword. Polish school would emphasize the handle: it defines the matter of wielding the weapon. Russian historians of weapons would call any sword, with any handle, but with a Persian blade a shamshir. Polish ones would call a sword with a Persian blade and an Indian handle a tulwar, with a Turkish one a kilij and with an Arabic one a saif. Intriguingly, a straight indian sword with a firangi or khanda blade but with a tulwar handle would be called a tulwar, but same blades with a basket handle would be firangi and khanda. I do not think we can be categorical. It is a matter of local tradition and who are we to insist the locals are dead wrong and insist on our clearly european point of view ? Last edited by ariel; 14th February 2022 at 01:39 AM.

9th January 2022, 08:07 PM	#2
dakary Member Join Date: Jan 2022 Location: Canada Posts: 26	I do have to add that those Yemini hilts and pommels are really attractive to me too. I think Yemini arms are really nice. I like their jambiyas also. I tried to find one when I was in the Gulf but I just didn't have an eye that would allow me to pick out something worth getting and I wimped out. I probably should have just taken a plunge and gotten something.

11th January 2022, 07:51 PM	#4
dakary Member Join Date: Jan 2022 Location: Canada Posts: 26	Battara, that is not an antique, is it? If it isn't, could share where you acquired it from? Thanks!

12th January 2022, 12:06 AM	#5
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,323	Oh it is antique and even has a pattern welded blade. Got it in an online auction.

1st February 2022, 07:15 PM	#6
dakary Member Join Date: Jan 2022 Location: Canada Posts: 26	I have another set of related questions (although I am still looking for a good production arab/syrian/persian shamshir/saif and would appreciate any help with that, although there doesn't seem any forthcoming...). I noticed some S shaped guards on some antiques while I was in the Gulf. They seem to be primarily on Turkish shamshirs though. Was this decorative, or functional? When did they decide to do this (if not from the beginning)? Why is it rarer than straight guards? Thanks!