Moro kris or Indonesian keris?

Sajen · 1st January 2022, 09:54 PM

Hi Séverin and Ian,

Thank you both for your comment. I am with Ian, I guess that it is an early Moro kris. Like Ian wrote are the wide long luks are the give away but was very unsure. I was very disappointed to get outbid by another bidder.

But I want to show it here because I think that it's a very interesting item.

Regards,
Detlef

kai · 1st January 2022, 10:31 PM

Thanks for posting this piece, Detlef!

To me the blade looks like a North coast blade from Java (also the size seems not unusual); the mendak and selut would fit well with such an origin, too. I can't see enough of the rather crude hilt for suggesting an origin - despite some age, it may be a later replacement.

The scabbard construction is typical Sulu style; it is not unheard of that some later Java blades traveled into Moroland and got incorporated into the local culture though. Especially some intermediate keris from Borneo exhibit trade blades from Java (or of possibly Java/Madura/Bugis-influenced local manufacture).

Some of the blade features are not consistent with Moro preferences. There is quite a bit of wear indicating some age - nothing close to predating the evolution of the Moro kris though (IMVHO). The blade does not have the typical taluseko style which would make local manufacture a bit more likely.

Regards,
Kai

Ian · 2nd January 2022, 02:06 AM

Sajen, Kai, Athanase:

I think we are all acknowledging a combination of styles with this piece and its scabbard. There seems general agreement that the scabbard is of Malay/Sulu manufacture, and is not consistent with a Javanese origin. The hilt is also somewhat atypical for a keris.

The blade has produced more diverse opinions. Some of us see keris, others see an early or precursor Malay/Moro kris. Perhaps both views are correct! Does it look like some keris? Yes. Does it look like an early prototype of Moro kris? Possibly.

It is widely believed that the Moro kris was derived from the Indonesian keris. Personally, I can see how a keris, such as the one shown here by Detlef, could be the basis for an archaic form of the Moro kris, which tended to be shorter (about 18 to 20 in. overall) than later versions.

I think Kai is correct when he says that this particular example may not be old enough to represent an actual transition form from keris to kris. However, something like it might well have been.

A. G. Maisey · 2nd January 2022, 04:25 AM

If I ignore the dress, what I believe I can see is a Javanese keris, North Coast, tending to the west.

To my mind, nothing at all unusual in this.

Majapahit was trading weapons all over SE Asia, and as far west as Sri Lanka, Tuban on the North Coast of Jawa was a port renowned as a supplier of weapons, but waved blades that display Tuban characteristics are very rare.

The straight gonjo is what causes me to think more to west, but along the north coast.

Possibly Cirebon to Banten.

There is a type of keris that comes from Brunei that looks a bit like this, but this one under discussion does not seem to be sufficiently refined to be one of these Brunei blades.

Sajen · 2nd January 2022, 09:30 AM

Hello Kai, Ian and Alan,

Thank you all for your comments! So it seems that it is a West Javanese blade which found its way to the Philippines and got redressed there.
The first one I've seen until now!

My disappointment that I wasn't the winner grow!

Regards,
Detlef

Sajen · 2nd January 2022, 09:42 AM

BTW, here was shown some time ago kris with figural handles which remind me of the handle from this piece but I can't find it.

David · 3rd January 2022, 09:21 PM

I believe this auction was won by a member here. I will see if I can get them to join the discussion.

1st January 2022, 09:54 PM	#1
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,212	Hi Séverin and Ian, Thank you both for your comment. I am with Ian, I guess that it is an early Moro kris. Like Ian wrote are the wide long luks are the give away but was very unsure. I was very disappointed to get outbid by another bidder. But I want to show it here because I think that it's a very interesting item. Regards, Detlef

1st January 2022, 10:31 PM	#2
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	Thanks for posting this piece, Detlef! To me the blade looks like a North coast blade from Java (also the size seems not unusual); the mendak and selut would fit well with such an origin, too. I can't see enough of the rather crude hilt for suggesting an origin - despite some age, it may be a later replacement. The scabbard construction is typical Sulu style; it is not unheard of that some later Java blades traveled into Moroland and got incorporated into the local culture though. Especially some intermediate keris from Borneo exhibit trade blades from Java (or of possibly Java/Madura/Bugis-influenced local manufacture). Some of the blade features are not consistent with Moro preferences. There is quite a bit of wear indicating some age - nothing close to predating the evolution of the Moro kris though (IMVHO). The blade does not have the typical taluseko style which would make local manufacture a bit more likely. Regards, Kai

2nd January 2022, 02:06 AM	#3
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,397	Sajen, Kai, Athanase: I think we are all acknowledging a combination of styles with this piece and its scabbard. There seems general agreement that the scabbard is of Malay/Sulu manufacture, and is not consistent with a Javanese origin. The hilt is also somewhat atypical for a keris. The blade has produced more diverse opinions. Some of us see keris, others see an early or precursor Malay/Moro kris. Perhaps both views are correct! Does it look like some keris? Yes. Does it look like an early prototype of Moro kris? Possibly. It is widely believed that the Moro kris was derived from the Indonesian keris. Personally, I can see how a keris, such as the one shown here by Detlef, could be the basis for an archaic form of the Moro kris, which tended to be shorter (about 18 to 20 in. overall) than later versions. I think Kai is correct when he says that this particular example may not be old enough to represent an actual transition form from keris to kris. However, something like it might well have been.

2nd January 2022, 04:25 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	If I ignore the dress, what I believe I can see is a Javanese keris, North Coast, tending to the west. To my mind, nothing at all unusual in this. Majapahit was trading weapons all over SE Asia, and as far west as Sri Lanka, Tuban on the North Coast of Jawa was a port renowned as a supplier of weapons, but waved blades that display Tuban characteristics are very rare. The straight gonjo is what causes me to think more to west, but along the north coast. Possibly Cirebon to Banten. There is a type of keris that comes from Brunei that looks a bit like this, but this one under discussion does not seem to be sufficiently refined to be one of these Brunei blades.

2nd January 2022, 09:30 AM	#5
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,212	Hello Kai, Ian and Alan, Thank you all for your comments! So it seems that it is a West Javanese blade which found its way to the Philippines and got redressed there. The first one I've seen until now! My disappointment that I wasn't the winner grow! Regards, Detlef

2nd January 2022, 09:42 AM	#6
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,212	BTW, here was shown some time ago kris with figural handles which remind me of the handle from this piece but I can't find it.

3rd January 2022, 09:21 PM	#7
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	I believe this auction was won by a member here. I will see if I can get them to join the discussion.