Link from pappenheimer to boca-de-caballo hilt

[M ELEY]

The two swords I posted were for reference to the figural quillon downfacing from the hilt and of a form found in espadas and colonial broadswords. I made no definite conclusion to this, just a possible clue. Likewise, the second posting shows a cuphilt (albeit later period) with a flattened knucklebow EXACTLY like the one on the specimen being presented. Again, I'm no expert, but wanted tp point out this interesting characterization. The knucklebow near the hilt also bears some evidence of repair, as noted by others here. This type of repair often seen here in the Americas, but of course not exclusive. Most of the examples shown have the long straight quillons of classic Spanish cuphilts, while this example is, as noted, similar to the m1728. I guess what we get into here (and have before) is how to tell a beat-up, field repaired classic Spanish cavalry type with one that was assembled from different parts in provincial/colonial settings? The example shown has a replacement grip of plain wood core? The pommel, unlike almost all of the other examples presented, is devoid of all decoration, The quillons, once again, are like the classic bilbo, but lack grace, so replacements? Repairs?

So.....if this is a European fellow, it has definitely seen some hard times

[midelburgo]

Originally Posted by M ELEY

The two swords I posted were for reference to the figural quillon downfacing from the hilt and of a form found in espadas and colonial broadswords. I made no definite conclusion to this, just a possible clue. Likewise, the second posting shows a cuphilt (albeit later period) with a flattened knucklebow EXACTLY like the one on the specimen being presented. Again, I'm no expert, but wanted tp point out this interesting characterization. The knucklebow near the hilt also bears some evidence of repair, as noted by others here. This type of repair often seen here in the Americas, but of course not exclusive. Most of the examples shown have the long straight quillons of classic Spanish cuphilts, while this example is, as noted, similar to the m1728. I guess what we get into here (and have before) is how to tell a beat-up, field repaired classic Spanish cavalry type with one that was assembled from different parts in provincial/colonial settings? The example shown has a replacement grip of plain wood core? The pommel, unlike almost all of the other examples presented, is devoid of all decoration, The quillons, once again, are like the classic bilbo, but lack grace, so replacements? Repairs?

So.....if this is a European fellow, it has definitely seen some hard times

Yes, you pointed to the knuclebow reparation, but your examples could end being used for something else. What I get from this is that there are not so many ways of making a functional field reparation of the knuclebow. In XVIIth, XVIIIth, or XIXth centuries. In Europe or the Americas. I do not have the sword here, but what I see from the picture, the top end of the grip wood was cut, and a ring inserted and this piece was riveted to the remnants of knuclebow.
No brass welding here. It could have being made to continue the military use of the sword, or in XIXth century by a collector. This sort of afterworks have an antique and primitive look, but that can be deceiving.

The funny thing is that XVIIIth century bilboes are often mistaken for XVIIth century swords, because of the ricasso and the holding hand posture, with two fingers on the cross. But that these real XVIIth century swords become mistaken for XVIIIth century ones is new to me. The fact is that Spain abandoned the use of rapiers shortly after 1700, with the new Borbon dinasty, and therefore rapiers and their hilts shall be older than that.

[Jim McDougall]

Midelburgo, again I must thank you for adding the detail and supportive material in your posts, it is most informative.
Actually, your astute reference to my obsession with Spanish colonial edged weapons is well placed. Having grown up in the Spanish southwest many years ago, I became fascinated with them in the 60s. I have collected and studied them nominally ever since, and as you also well note, there is precious little reference material on them.
The standard reference on them "Spanish Military Weapons in Colonial America 1700-1821" by Brinckerhoff and Chamberlain was pretty much the guide, despite obviously some material since revised in the community. Pierce Chamberlain was a great guy who like Mr. Brinckerhoff noted there were deficiencies admitting that openly, but were always generous in trying to help with my never ending questions.

As you note, 'obsolete' and old forms did indeed prevail in frontier regions, but not only in more remote, but metropolitan regions in the colonies, for example Santa Fe, New Mexico. I have spent time there researching early Spanish arms and armor and it is remarkable how much much earlier forms were favored there.

As Im sure you know, Spanish expeditions from the outset, were basically private syndicated enterprises though led by military officers. These groups were self equipped (see "Arms of the Conquistadors" Walter Karcheski) so these men would bring any equipment they could secure.
The remote situation of these colonial regions continued to carry these circumstances, with a wide array of weaponry being used.

Metal workers and artisans in the blacksmith trade became skilled in copying many of the intricate motif in 'Penisular' work and certainly Italian (Brescian) as these arms were well known in Spain. Many "Spanish' cuphilts were made there.

The 'Peninsular' elite, especially with noble ancestry, in these metropolitan colonial cities, held to their antiquated weaponry and swordsmanship well through the 18th century into the 19th.

This is well described in Aylward (1945), "The Smallsword in England" (p.34),
"....while the French and the English kept on altering their swords to suit new and improved methods of defense, the Spaniards remained almost fanatically attached to the quaint metaphysical theories of their school, regarding the now old fashioned long rapier as so sacrosanct that they could not condescend to making blades for any other kind of sword. The extent to which they clung to tradition is typified most amusingly in an illustration to Danet's L'Art des Armes, published in 1766, which shows a Spanish swordsman arrayed in a dress resembling that of the 16th century, and attempting to defend himself with a rapier almost as long as himself".

As Toledo had essentially ceased as a blade center by the end of the 17thc,
the reliance was on Solingen to make blades for the colonies. I recall one shipwreck off Panama with bundles of rapier blades with 'Toledo' marked spuriously and dating from early 18th c.

However for the military, these narrow rapier blades were of course not suitable, and Solingen began accommodating with the type of 'arming' blades that became associated with the so called M1728 'bilbo' swords. These arming blades also were mounted on the 'Caribbean cup hilt' types (as termed by Peterson). All of these forms comingled throughout the America's and well into the 19th c.

As pointed out, the second example Mark posted is of a form regarded as a 'round tang espada' (Adams, 1985) and indeed in use in mid to third quarter 19thc. recalling earlier forms of Spanish swords. As he noted, these were posted as exemplars of that penchant for traditional form and design.

As you have noted, these 'Brescian' form hilts are not rare, therefore certainly filtered into colonial settings. The various traditional forms and elements were often constructed into unusual hilt forms as you describe as 'chinaco' from the mid 19th c. used by forces in the numerous insurrections, political upheavals, revolutionary actions on 1850s onward probably of these multiple bar guards. These curiously have a crossguard under these almost basket type guards seeming a bit redundant, and clearly vestigial.
In my opinion the 'bilbo' hilt shells seem to recall these Brescian and of course Spanish hilts of 17th c.
These images of the 'chinaco' style noted as a grouping including caribbean hilt and bilbo of 18th c. and various later colonial forms.
There was even a brass 'briquet' hilt with three bar guard and 'dragoon' blade (with Spanish motto) assembled in an almost 'Frankenstein' type sword possibly for some rural soldado.


The notable constabulary forces established by Juarez and continued by Diaz into early 1900s also carried swords of various forms as could be personally acquired despite being armed with firearms.

In the rural Iberian regions, during the campaigns and conflicts you mentioned, of course the ersatz use of older weapons and field repairs would very much correspond to the often cruder work in colonial arms. Of course without provenance, its anybodys guess, but the fact that all of these types existed contemporarily in colonial settings into the 19th c. in my opinion stands as quite reasonable.

[midelburgo]

After what I consider the most hazardous shipment of a sword I have suffered, the sword from the opening post arrived. I paid for it at the end of September. The seller, from Tenerife, had to run to the La Palma island because her family properties were coming under the lava, without sending the sword, although she said she did. Problems with weapons in planes. Finally sent in December, later the sword arrived to the peninsula, but at my post office, for unknown reasons (Christmas mess) they sent it back to Tenerife... Just by chance, I paid online custom duties (they exist between the Peninsula and the Canary Islands) thinking they were for entry in the continent, but then they were for returning to the island. If I would not have paid, the sword probably would have remained in the customs warehouses until destroyed.

Anyway. The inscription, same on both sides, I have not been able to decipher, 6 characters, possibly.

I V A M E S, but the M could be a W, then B E W - A I ???

I just found there was at Seville a swordsmith JUANES who died in 1596.

Pommel is lightly carved and I believe original. Brutalistic knucklebow repair does not use brass welding.

I have made some comparisons of a Brescia hilt rapier (with a c1607 blade), in order to show the performed mutilations.

And how they bring this (fashion victim) sword in closer looks to two cavalry trooper 1728 models (bilboes) from c1730 and c1760 (Enrique Coel blade). This sword was probably in use from c1670 to c1750. I believe the twisting quillons thing started about the 1728 ordenanzas.