Awesome Jacobite period basket hilt broadsword

M ELEY · 18th September 2021, 04:11 AM

[QUOTE=Jim McDougall;266171]That the basket hilt had a long presence in the American colonies has no doubt. Scots and Irish, hence Scotch-Irish, had been coming to America, and in the Carolinas for some time, and were in place in early 18th c.

On the death of the pirate Blackbeard, from "Under the Black Flag", David Cordingly, 1996, p.198):

"....one of Maynard's men being a Highlander, engaged Teach with his broadsword, who gave Teach a cut on the neck, Teach saying 'well done lad'; the Highlander replied , 'if not be well done, then I'll do it better', with that he gave him a second stroke, which cut off his head laying it flat on his shoulder".

-from the "Boston News Letter", Feb.23 to Mar.2, 1719.

The event was at Ocracoke, N.C. November 22, 1718.

Jim, anytime you bring up either Blackbeard, piracy or Scottish baskets, you command my attention! I was always fascinated by the story of the Highlander who killed the nefarious pirate. Most texts annoyingly just say Lt. Maynard killed him, which was not the case. The Scot who struck down the villain from Bristol is usually un-credited, as is the story of him striking the pirate twice. This is the kind of stuff that keeps me collecting. Knowing all of the history these pieces represent and all of the (potential) places they may have traveled to in their paths through history!

Thanks to all for commenting on the basket! Maybe I'll strap this soldier to my side, put on my kilt and attend the next Highland Games here in NC!

fernando · 18th September 2021, 04:23 PM

[QUOTE=M ELEY;266190]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... Maybe I'll strap this soldier to my side, put on my kilt and attend the next Highland Games here in NC!

Post us a picture later on Captain

.

M ELEY · 18th September 2021, 09:28 PM

Thanks, 'Nando. I'll do so!

Jim McDougall · 19th September 2021, 05:07 PM

I wanted to add some notes on these basket hilts for perspective. The first is my own basket hilt, which was found in an estate sale in Maryland some years ago. This is of course the Glasgow style hilt (just as Mark's) and basically of same period, however the extended wrist guard has been added (probably in early years of 18th c).
The blade is of course Solingen, with the spurious 'SEBASTIAN' (Hernandez) with the 'anchor' mark. The other 'sextant' type mark is of Wirsberg, c.1650s. It has often been thought that this mark might be a sextant (found on some hanger blades, but seems the arc was wider), but bugle seems more likely.

This just added to nod toward the fact that basket hilts were indeed used at sea and this instance likely increased in the early 18th c.
In 1707, the acts which combined England and Scotland were matter of great issue of course, and the flow of emigration to the American colonies greatly increased from Scotland. Primarily this is because Scottish shipping now became powerfully more abundant, and Scottish emigrants had more opportunity for transport.

According to academic studies, there were three 'waves' of emigration, first mostly lowland; then Highland; then Ulster, 1700-1775. This is of course highly generalized, and the first Highlanders said to have arrived at Cape Fear, N.C. in 1729 (according to records of course).

The Highlanders were of course present earlier, as the news report earlier mentioned with the death of Blackbeard in 1718 attributes his end to a Highlander. We know that the men who had joined Maynard on his 2 sloops to track down Blackbeard were locals in Carolina, so a Highland member seems logical. These were not sea going crews, but local men, possibly from a militia type group.

Returning to the evolution of the Glasgow style hilt, it has been said that John Simpson may have begun this form (he began in 1683) which seems to be changing the center shields from round to rectangular, and using saltire bars instead of 'ribbons'.

The ribbon hilt (next photo) has typically been regarded as latter 17th c. however we now know they were a type earlier, c. 1650s.
This just added to illustrate the evolution of these basket hilts we now know as 'Glasgow' hilts. The more elaborate 'Stirling' hilts followed in the early 18th c. with often more artistic 'story board' type themes and decoration wrought with symbolism. While the Glasgow hilts were more rudimentary, their pierced decoration often carried far more nuanced and stylized symbolism.

Later, the Glasgow form was copied in basic for the 'garrison' (military) type hilts produced mostly by Jeffries and Drury in London, and mounted on various blades, typically German but by their time (c. 1750s) some Birmingham made., Next picture of one of these hilts.

M ELEY · 21st September 2021, 04:00 AM

Thank you Jim for this great information (again!). I would love to see a pic of Rob Roy's (reported) sword if anyone can find a pic. I know he was a hero in his own time, so the survival of his blade seems very plausible. Thank you alsl for the info on those Scots which came to the Americas, particularly those in my neck of the woods (there are many landmarks, counties, regions named after the Highlands and Scottish surnames as well. Your two Scottish broadswords, BTW, are amazing in themselves! They present a great evolution from mid-17th until mid-18th and beyond.

Jim McDougall · 21st September 2021, 06:50 PM

I have been trying to find a photo of Rob Roy's sword, but images online are pretty dismal. I do know that Master of Arms Paul MacDonald of Edinburgh restored it in 2007, and I communicated with him a number of times a few years later. I cannot yet find those records.

Most of what can be found online is the huge volume of images, discussion on the 2003 movie with Leem Neeson, which though quite good, is wanting in historical detail.
The legend of Rob Roy, was created of course by Sir Walter Scott, whose novels were wonderful, but like much of the 'written word' became held as fact. This of course then became part of the lexicon of 'Scottish lore'.

The actual duel between Rob Roy MacGregor and Charles Stuart was in 1734 at Invernahyle, Inverlochlarig near Balquiddar. Supposedly the dispute was over actions of both men at Sheriffmuir (1715) however it was actually concerning land matters. It was agreed that single combat would settle this and Charles, much younger than Rob Roy, would represent MacLaren land owners. MacGregor though older was a formidable swordsman.

In Highland fashion, the duel was settled by first good cut, which caught MacGregor below chin, and the matter ended. Unfortunately the wound became septic, and MacGregor died later (doubtful it took years as many accounts suggest, his death date was 1734).

This photo of the two swords involved, restored by Paul MacDonald in 2007, show MacGregors on the left, Stuarts on the right.
Rob Roys was a broadsword, and of course earlier with the favored Andrea Ferara blade, while the Stuart sword is a backsword, so likely later perhaps 1720s.

Interestly both seem to have Andrea Ferara blades, which of course became the pinnacle of blades on Scottish swords. This phenomenon has become its own legend and lore with this mythical swordsmith and his blades which not only were held to have the highest quality, but almost magical in strength.
Many have believed that this bladesmith from Belluno, Italy in 16th century, went to Spain, was Spanish, went to Scotland and for years trained Scottish bladesmiths etc.

There is no evidence of any of this, in fact Andrea and his older brother (both born c. 1530's) did work in the regions of Belluno and several other towns with forges, but for a well known Italian family of armorers.
Apparently the work of Andrea became legendary through a 1567 treatise on military matters including armament by Cigogna.
This led to mrerchants from London going to Belluno to establish a contract with the Ferara brothers in 1583 for set numbers of blades for 10 years.
The disposition of this agreement is unclear, but obviously, the volume of Andrea Ferara blades is significant, but
the problem is that virtually all of these blades have been Solingen products.
Andrea died in 1612, his brother Zandona several years later.

fernando · 22nd September 2021, 05:34 PM

From all 'certainties' we read out there about the whereabouts of this famous sword, one i find wise to take into account is:
" I suspect Rob Roy had as many swords as he had hiding places ! ".

19th September 2021, 05:07 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,577	I wanted to add some notes on these basket hilts for perspective. The first is my own basket hilt, which was found in an estate sale in Maryland some years ago. This is of course the Glasgow style hilt (just as Mark's) and basically of same period, however the extended wrist guard has been added (probably in early years of 18th c). The blade is of course Solingen, with the spurious 'SEBASTIAN' (Hernandez) with the 'anchor' mark. The other 'sextant' type mark is of Wirsberg, c.1650s. It has often been thought that this mark might be a sextant (found on some hanger blades, but seems the arc was wider), but bugle seems more likely. This just added to nod toward the fact that basket hilts were indeed used at sea and this instance likely increased in the early 18th c. In 1707, the acts which combined England and Scotland were matter of great issue of course, and the flow of emigration to the American colonies greatly increased from Scotland. Primarily this is because Scottish shipping now became powerfully more abundant, and Scottish emigrants had more opportunity for transport. According to academic studies, there were three 'waves' of emigration, first mostly lowland; then Highland; then Ulster, 1700-1775. This is of course highly generalized, and the first Highlanders said to have arrived at Cape Fear, N.C. in 1729 (according to records of course). The Highlanders were of course present earlier, as the news report earlier mentioned with the death of Blackbeard in 1718 attributes his end to a Highlander. We know that the men who had joined Maynard on his 2 sloops to track down Blackbeard were locals in Carolina, so a Highland member seems logical. These were not sea going crews, but local men, possibly from a militia type group. Returning to the evolution of the Glasgow style hilt, it has been said that John Simpson may have begun this form (he began in 1683) which seems to be changing the center shields from round to rectangular, and using saltire bars instead of 'ribbons'. The ribbon hilt (next photo) has typically been regarded as latter 17th c. however we now know they were a type earlier, c. 1650s. This just added to illustrate the evolution of these basket hilts we now know as 'Glasgow' hilts. The more elaborate 'Stirling' hilts followed in the early 18th c. with often more artistic 'story board' type themes and decoration wrought with symbolism. While the Glasgow hilts were more rudimentary, their pierced decoration often carried far more nuanced and stylized symbolism. Later, the Glasgow form was copied in basic for the 'garrison' (military) type hilts produced mostly by Jeffries and Drury in London, and mounted on various blades, typically German but by their time (c. 1750s) some Birmingham made., Next picture of one of these hilts. Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 19th September 2021 at 05:21 PM.

21st September 2021, 06:50 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,577	I have been trying to find a photo of Rob Roy's sword, but images online are pretty dismal. I do know that Master of Arms Paul MacDonald of Edinburgh restored it in 2007, and I communicated with him a number of times a few years later. I cannot yet find those records. Most of what can be found online is the huge volume of images, discussion on the 2003 movie with Leem Neeson, which though quite good, is wanting in historical detail. The legend of Rob Roy, was created of course by Sir Walter Scott, whose novels were wonderful, but like much of the 'written word' became held as fact. This of course then became part of the lexicon of 'Scottish lore'. The actual duel between Rob Roy MacGregor and Charles Stuart was in 1734 at Invernahyle, Inverlochlarig near Balquiddar. Supposedly the dispute was over actions of both men at Sheriffmuir (1715) however it was actually concerning land matters. It was agreed that single combat would settle this and Charles, much younger than Rob Roy, would represent MacLaren land owners. MacGregor though older was a formidable swordsman. In Highland fashion, the duel was settled by first good cut, which caught MacGregor below chin, and the matter ended. Unfortunately the wound became septic, and MacGregor died later (doubtful it took years as many accounts suggest, his death date was 1734). This photo of the two swords involved, restored by Paul MacDonald in 2007, show MacGregors on the left, Stuarts on the right. Rob Roys was a broadsword, and of course earlier with the favored Andrea Ferara blade, while the Stuart sword is a backsword, so likely later perhaps 1720s. Interestly both seem to have Andrea Ferara blades, which of course became the pinnacle of blades on Scottish swords. This phenomenon has become its own legend and lore with this mythical swordsmith and his blades which not only were held to have the highest quality, but almost magical in strength. Many have believed that this bladesmith from Belluno, Italy in 16th century, went to Spain, was Spanish, went to Scotland and for years trained Scottish bladesmiths etc. There is no evidence of any of this, in fact Andrea and his older brother (both born c. 1530's) did work in the regions of Belluno and several other towns with forges, but for a well known Italian family of armorers. Apparently the work of Andrea became legendary through a 1567 treatise on military matters including armament by Cigogna. This led to mrerchants from London going to Belluno to establish a contract with the Ferara brothers in 1583 for set numbers of blades for 10 years. The disposition of this agreement is unclear, but obviously, the volume of Andrea Ferara blades is significant, but the problem is that virtually all of these blades have been Solingen products. Andrea died in 1612, his brother Zandona several years later. Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 21st September 2021 at 10:29 PM.

22nd September 2021, 05:34 PM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Rob Roy's sword From all 'certainties' we read out there about the whereabouts of this famous sword, one i find wise to take into account is: " I suspect Rob Roy had as many swords as he had hiding places ! ".

18th September 2021, 04:11 AM	#1
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,196	[QUOTE=Jim McDougall;266171]That the basket hilt had a long presence in the American colonies has no doubt. Scots and Irish, hence Scotch-Irish, had been coming to America, and in the Carolinas for some time, and were in place in early 18th c. On the death of the pirate Blackbeard, from "Under the Black Flag", David Cordingly, 1996, p.198): "....one of Maynard's men being a Highlander, engaged Teach with his broadsword, who gave Teach a cut on the neck, Teach saying 'well done lad'; the Highlander replied , 'if not be well done, then I'll do it better', with that he gave him a second stroke, which cut off his head laying it flat on his shoulder". -from the "Boston News Letter", Feb.23 to Mar.2, 1719. The event was at Ocracoke, N.C. November 22, 1718. Jim, anytime you bring up either Blackbeard, piracy or Scottish baskets, you command my attention! I was always fascinated by the story of the Highlander who killed the nefarious pirate. Most texts annoyingly just say Lt. Maynard killed him, which was not the case. The Scot who struck down the villain from Bristol is usually un-credited, as is the story of him striking the pirate twice. This is the kind of stuff that keeps me collecting. Knowing all of the history these pieces represent and all of the (potential) places they may have traveled to in their paths through history! Thanks to all for commenting on the basket! Maybe I'll strap this soldier to my side, put on my kilt and attend the next Highland Games here in NC!

18th September 2021, 09:28 PM	#3
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,196	Thanks, 'Nando. I'll do so!

21st September 2021, 04:00 AM	#5
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,196	Thank you Jim for this great information (again!). I would love to see a pic of Rob Roy's (reported) sword if anyone can find a pic. I know he was a hero in his own time, so the survival of his blade seems very plausible. Thank you alsl for the info on those Scots which came to the Americas, particularly those in my neck of the woods (there are many landmarks, counties, regions named after the Highlands and Scottish surnames as well. Your two Scottish broadswords, BTW, are amazing in themselves! They present a great evolution from mid-17th until mid-18th and beyond.