The Ultimate Karabela Guide

[awdaniec666]

I decided to change the topic for Part 3 of this guide from a comparison of two weapons to something different to dive deeper into the possibilities of deciphering the history of a Karabela. Namely the possibilities of origin of older blades mounted on Karabela sabers.

This part will be more about images rather than written information.
Please consider looking for more information in catalogs of museums, auctions and so on. There is much to discover and the following is just an impression about where to start your search when considering if a blade has been reused.

---

The Ultimate Karabela Guide Part 3

---

Throughout history many blades have been reused on newer hilts. A good blade was expensive and fencing techniques depend equally on the design of the blade as well as the hilt design. In particular, European saber blades had a quite consistent design which permitted a fencer to use a 17th century blade with an early 19th century hilt. No problem in that.

Below is a list of sword-types which I know regularly or sometimes had blades we can find on later made Karabela-hilts, the kontuszowa versions (parade) and also battle versions:

• Hungarian sabers
• Polish-Hungarian sabers (Stefan Batory influenced, Polish King from 1576)
• Ottoman sabers (a lot were captured at f.e. Chocim in 1673 and Vienna in 1683)
• German sabers (f.e. "Säbel zu teutsch gefasst" or the Dussack
• Older polish sabers (f.e. Class I, "Hussar saber" (this is the last time I use this term for class I!)

---

Examples:


Figure 4. Hungarian saber, 17th century


Figure 5. Polish-Hungarian saber, 16th century (Rüstkammer, Dresden, Germany)


Figure 6. Ottoman saber, age unknown to me


Figure 7. German saber, 17th century (Wikipedia)


Figure 8. Polish saber Class I, around 1700(?) (National Museum in Cracow, Poland)


Figure 9. Example of a reused blade on a newer Karabela hilt - A Karabela kontuszowa with a 17th century blade (Gold inlay "IOANNES III REX POLONIARUM") with a mid- to late-18th century hilt (former Nuri Museum, Switzerland)


Figure 10. Another reused blade (Spocki Dom Aukcyjny, Poland)



---

Part 4 will continue as planned with a comparison of two sabers the same age but from different origin.
Enjoy and comment!

[Ian]

awdaniec666,

Thank you for all the time and effort you have put into these posts. It is greatly appreciated.

I have received a request to transfer this thread to the European Armoury Forum on this site, where you may likely receive more responses. You will still be able to post in the thread after it has been transferred.

Ian.

[Ian]

Transferred to Euro Forum.

[ariel]

Fig 6. was just sold on liveauctioneers for $750 + 23% fee.. It was described as Russian Cossack Ukrainian or Don. I asked a question on what grounds , but did not receive any answer.
Pics and description were taken off the page.

[awdaniec666]

Thanks Ariel for that info!

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by ariel

Fig 6. was just sold on liveauctioneers for $750 + 23% fee.. It was described as Russian Cossack Ukrainian or Don. I asked a question on what grounds , but did not receive any answer.
Pics and description were taken off the page.

I would imagine this association may be based on the well known 1891 painting by Ilya Repin, "Reply of the Zaporozhian Cossacks to Sultan Mehmed IV of the Ottoman Empire" by painter Ilya Repin.

This painting has well influenced the images of this famed host of Cossacks since then, and I can recall a number of times I have seen swords identified against this backdrop. I can recall discussions with Iaroslav Lebedynsky years ago about these Cossacks and the type of sabers they used (he is of Ukrainian descent). While mostly they used the 'L-guard' sabers of Poland and Lithuania (their original descent ) they of course would have used forms of Ottoman weapons as well.

The saber illustrated in #6 is of course Ottoman, with familiar pistol grip hilt, and likely early to mid 18th century. Aside from well evidenced provenance there is not really a way to distinctly align this with Zaporozhians. It is unlikely it would have been of the Don Host, but again, possibilities.

The reason this Ottoman saber might have been included among listings of 'karabela' is that I have seen images of Polish swords of this Ottoman form with pistol grip termed 'karabela', using the term in a more collective sense.
Returning to the Zaporozhian use of these types of swords, it is indeed possible they did use these as well as the L-guard form of Polish sabers of the 17th century.
The use of the L-guard sabers was confirmed by excavations from the Battle of Beretschko (1651) in the Ukraine, and the numerous examples found were documented in a 1992 article. I do not recall these types of Ottoman hilted sabers among those shown.

[Radboud]

Thank you for the excellent write up awdaniec666 Polish swords have a lot of charm to them, that's for certain!

[awdaniec666]

I had a conversation with an extraordinary swordsmith from Poland lately.
We discussed sword usage in relation to the damage the blade is taking especially from parrying.
We came to the conclusion Mr.Z´s theory of how blows were parried with the type II saber is one which you can expect from an olympic fencer (as Mr.Z was) but will not get you and your blade far in battle.
Reflecting parades will lead to serious edge damage to such an extend that the used blade must be fully replaced after fighting multiple opponents.
Therefore my personal working theory is now, like old sources from the medival (f.e. my time-distant teacher Peter von Danzig from the 15th century) tell us that one should only parry with the strong ("Stärke") of the blade, near the ricasso or the crossguard itself.
While this can seem obvious, one has to keep in mind that fights with sharp weapons are very uncommon these days (I know of certain madmen) and such a theory could be only verified by clashing ORIGINAL blades, not modern replica grade to see how our forefathers steel behaves.
As usual: There is no black and white, make your own conclusions using your logical mind but mind the experience of people who know their stuff.
Cheers
P.S.: I would very much appreciate input in form of images of your Karabelas or thoughts on this thread. Nearly 1300 readers must have something interesting to say. Thanks go out to the people who commented so far. This is for you guys, so if you want to hear more, I need feedback. I know the stuff and don´t need to write it down for myself :P